Fears for 228 as Air France jet vanishes

CNN ^ | June 1, 2009

[VaBthang4]

"There were quite a few Pentacostal ‘prophets’ predicting that May 31st of this year could be the rapture."

Yawn. Never heard a one.

Haterism in your game?

[BP2]

If they still had control of the aircraft after complete loss of electrical (AC & DC, primary & emergency), followed by a massive loss of cabin pressure, the procedures/aircrew training would have probably been to descend the aircraft to 10,000’ (breathable ambient oxygen and increased atmospheric pressure). They also perhaps slowed to max range airspeed (L/D max) to get more range (aircraft burn more fuel at lower altitude), as well as to minimize further structural damage if they had exterior panels that lost rivets and were exposed to the airstream.

It varies aircraft to aircraft, but normally the crew has approximately 30 minutes on LOX 100 percent oxygen, and the passengers 10-15 minutes from those little cups that pop down from the overhead ceiling before they lose consciousness.

Airline pilots are rightfully taught that you do NOT turn an aircraft around IN a line of t-storms — it takes too long and you prolong your time in the t-storm based upon high airspeed and a subsequent wide turning radius. Fly forward and through a t-storm is nearly always the best course of action if you "find" yourself in a t-storm. The BEST course of action is to avoid them all together, but if you encounter a 1000-mile long line of t-storms, it makes that impractical.

Also, onboard aircraft weather radar can "lie" to you. Reflective radar energy from a seemingly moderate storm ahead that you can easily fly through can "mask" rain droplets behind it that could be much more intense. Those are called hidden "embedded thunderstorms."

If the forward line of t-storms was wide for the A330, and they needed to descend to 10,000 for oxygen -- but ALSO where t-storms are normally MORE intense -- well, they could have been in a nearly "no-win" situation...

[null and void]

as well as to minimize further structural damage if they had exterior panels that lost rivets and were exposed to the airstream.

I would guess that at 10,000' a severe T-storm would use the loose panels as a starting point to peel the a/c like a banana.

[AmericanDave]

Great tag line....

[Frantzie]

People said lightning and a possible power loss but two hours out they should have been above the weather. Any idea how high this Airbus cruise.

God help these poor people.

[Frantzie]

Carbon fiber tails on Airbuses?

[BP2]

Well, they would have probably slowed to 250 knots, even in Class G airspace over the ocean, to minimize the damage.

At 250 kts, the panels should stay in place unless a large opening on the wing was exposed. Then you start having massive drag and directional control problems — but those can be minimized too by a slower airspeed.

You just can’t get too close to stalling airspeed. If you have massive surface areas ripped open and exposed to the airstream, it can increase the stall significantly. Get too slow, the damaged wing can stall and the aircraft can “roll” over on you in flight. Complete loss of control. This could happen WELL ABOVE posted stall speeds.

But if the crew already had total loss of electrics (possibly from a lightning strike), PLUS severe turbulence to a wide-body like the A330, PLUS by a sudden loss of cabin pressure — that’s a LOT of emergencies to pile on the aircrew.

Add on more t-storms ahead — yikes. Sound like a pilot scenario from hell. I’ve had nightmares about such things — I’d hate to experience them for real...

[TSgt]

BP2

Thank you for your insightful posts!

Much appreciated! :)

Mike USAF

[null and void]

Yeah. Sometimes all you can do is die. I hate it when that happens.

[BP2]

There's so much equipment on an aircraft like the A330 that makes transoceanic flight safe. Still the safest way to get across the pond.

Engineers design to prevent lightning strikes from damaging aircraft. And yet it can zap you anyway, like on this B-737:

[Moose4]

I plucked this off airliners.net, supposedly it’s a statement from the Brazilian Air Force. IF (big “if”) this statement is correct, then the automatic message was sent from AF447 just six minutes before it was scheduled to cross the reporting point where it would switch to Dakar ATC. If that’s where it went down, it’s the worst possible spot for it...halfway in between South America and Africa, no land for 500+ miles in any direction, much less an airport to handle a widebody.

}:-)4

The Air Force Command reports that it initiated the search to locate Air France flight 447, which disappeared while flying from Rio de Janeiro (Rio de Janeiro State) to Paris (France), with estimated landing time at 0610 (Brasilia time) [0910 GMT].

The Air France aircraft took off from Galeao Airport at 1930 (Brasilia time) [2230 GMT]. At 2233 (Brasilia time) [0133 GMT on 1 June], flight AFR 447 made its last radio contact with the Atlantic Area Control Center (Cindacta [Combined Air Safety and Air Traffic Control Center] III) at position INTOL (565 kilometers from Natal, Rio Grande do Norte State) [01 21 S 32 50 W] – informing that it would enter Dakar (Senegal) airspace (position TASIL – 1,228 kilometers from Natal, Rio Grande do Norte State) [04 0 N 29 59 W] at 2320 (Brasilia time) [0220 GMT on 1 June]. At 2248 (Brasilia time) [0148 GMT], when the aircraft left Cindacta III’s Fernando de Noronha radar coverage area, information indicated that the plane was flying normally at an altitude of 35,000 feet (11 kilometers) and at a speed of 453 knots (840 kilometers per hour).

At the time estimated for (passage over) position TASIL (2320) [0220 GMT], the Air France aircraft did not make expected radio contact with Cindacta III – a fact that was relayed to Dakar Control.

Air France notified Cindacta III at 0830 (Brasilia time) [1130 GMT], that approximately 100 kilometers from position TASIL, flight AFR 447 sent a message to the company reporting technical problems with the aircraft (loss of pressurization and electrical system failure).

At 0230 (Brasilia time) [0530 GMT], Recife Salvaero [Air Rescue Service] activated Brazilian Air Force (FAB) search procedures, with 1 C-130 Hercules aircraft, 1 P-95 Bandeirante naval patrol plane, and the Air-Ground Rescue Squadron (Parasar).

[saganite]

No commmercial aircraft out there can top a large thunderstorm. Cruise levels generally run in the 30,000 to 40,000 foot range. Many cells can easily top 40,000 feet and even if you do manage to top them by a few thousand feet the effects from a growing cell extend well above the cell. Picking your way through a line of storms consists of using the onboard weather radar to find “holes” to go through betwen cells.

[null and void]

*ouch*

[Grimas]

I was supposed to be on this flight but changed to the KLM flight from San Paulo to Amsterdam. The flight departed about the same time and would have flown a similar route but we never experienced any turbulence during the flight. Not sure how we missed the weather but they didn’t as I know the pilots all talk to each other up there...

[TaxRelief]

...loss of pressurization..?

Then they may have flown on frozen to death for quite some time?

[BP2]

Thanks, I've mapped those waypoints here:

1) Rio de Janeiro
2) INTOL (1°21'39S 32°49'53W)
3) TASIL (4°0'18N 29°59'24W)

Yeah, I can think of a WHOLE lot of other places I'd rather be with total loss of Electrics, severe turbulence and a loss of cabin pressure.

Prayers to the crew, passengers and their families.

[BP2]

Crew last heard from at INTOL (2).

No report at waypoint TASIL (3).

[misterrob]

I flew on a smaller regional aircraft in a stormy area about 13 years ago. You could see lightning bolts off the starboard side of the plane. The pilot was taking us into areas where the effects were lessened but the ride felt like a roller coaster.

Having been on some rougher flights in the past and the uneasy feeling that comes with them I cannot imagine the terror those poor people must have experienced in their final minutes on this earth. There may be worse ways to check out of this world but rocking and rolling in the sky then plunging into the ocean knowing your time is up has to be God awful.

[tflabo]

Fairly uncommon that big jets go down in mid-flight weather related incidents. Disasters mostly occur during landings and take-offs. Never say never.

[misterrob]

How are you feeling right now?