Phil just needs a popgun.
Posted on 03/24/2009 11:28:08 AM PDT by NYer
"Traditional Catholics are sorely tempted by the genuine mistreatment they’ve experienced at the hands some, even many of the hierarchy . . ."
Either way, he would end up with a huge problem. HE Can’t control Notre Dame, period. I wish that he could.
“You are unfair to them when you assume that every bishop is in the rear echelon.”
Every bishop IS in the rear echelon. That's sort of their JOB. Now, it's true that some bishops occasionally come out from the rear echelon and join their fellow Catholics on the front lines.
But every bishop's job includes a whole lot of stuff that can only happen from the rear echelon. I don't begrudge them that at all.
What I begrudge is when they cut the legs out from under the folks whose vocations it is to live on the front lines.
“But you are taking the Devil’s hook if you refuse to recognize bishops who are on the front lines with you just because they don’t use the tactics you think they should be using. They will have to answer to God for the tactics they choose.”
Nah. I've bought that line for 30+ years.
One can review the history of things and evaluate what was done well and what was done poorly. The bishops, as a group, have done very poorly on the issue of life.
NOT EVERY BISHOP!! And certainly, NOT EVERY BISHOP ON EVERY DAY!!
But most bishops on most days.
That's not the “devil's hook.” It's just the facts of the situation.
“One tactic is to warn, first privately, then publicly, before laying down penalties. Naumann has done that in Kansas City, Martino in Scranton. Neither of them has yet pulled the nuclear trigger of excommnication.”
Frankly, I'd be ecstatic if most of our bishops were as strong as Archbishop Naumann and Bishop Martino. You're the one talking about excommunication. I've spoken about temporary revocation of faculties, and interdicts. In other conversations here on FR and in the non-virtual world, I usually ask only why the pro-deathers are permitted to receive the Blessed Sacrament when they publicly sin and create public scandal.
Regarding lay Catholic politicians who are pro-death, if a bishop only wishes to go as far as forbidding someone from receiving the Blessed Sacrament, I certainly wouldn't offer any criticism for not going further. THAT IS A REAL DISCIPLINARY MEASURE.
If bishops generally acted thusly, my pro-abort Catholic friends couldn't make the statements that they do. THAT would be giving support to us folks on the front lines.
“But in the absence of specific evidence, blanket condemnation of bishops is just as wrong as blanket condemnation of all fathers, of all teachers, of all bankers, of all used car salesmen.”
If I were making a truly blanket statement, you'd have a point. But at every turn, I've said that we're only speaking about bishops generally, and that there are a handful of exceptions. Regrettably, it is only a handful.
As for the rest of your post, I've already stated that I obey what is taught in union with the Holy See, but that, abiding by the words of the Master, I don't emulate the evildoers. Pray for them, yes. Obey their legitimate teaching, yes. Act like them, no.
And always keeping in mind that there are some good ones.
But not being afraid to point out when they do evil, or fail to do the good that they are obligated to do.
sitetest
There is no hierarchy like that. The Bishops have a lot of autonomy over their diocese. The next higher authority is the Pope, but even then, the Pope is concerned with matters of Faith and the Church as a whole. With extremely few exceptions the Pope does not concern himself with individual diocese. Remember, when John Paul II called the the American Bishops to Rome There is not higher power other than God.
An archbishop or a cardinal is simply a bishop is a bigger diocese. The Pope is the bishop of Rome. The Cardinals primary duty other than their diocese is to elect a new pope.
“Either way, he would end up with a huge problem.”
He'd wind up with a lot of folks angry at him. A lot of so-called “Catholics” probably would call for his head.
But it might be the beginning of discipline in his diocese.
Kinda like when you first discipline a child unused to receiving that sort of thing. You just have to work through all the temper tantrums, until the child sees that you mean business. It might be ugly at first, but it's worth it in the long run.
To do otherwise is to abdicate one’s parental responsibilities.
Most of the bishops have been abdicating their pastoral responsibilities for decades.
“HE Can’t control Notre Dame, period.”
He may not be able to control Notre Dame, but he certainly can control who has faculties in his diocese.
sitetest
Yeah ok, the Pope has no power in South Bend...and Vito Correleone was unable to come up with an offer they couldn’t refuse. duh.
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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
("Competent ecclesiastical authority" would be the diocesan ordinary, Bp. D'Arcy.)
Can. 810 §2. The conferences of bishops and diocesan bishops concerned have the duty and right of being watchful so that the principles of Catholic doctrine are observed faithfully in these same universities.
Can. 812 Those who teach theological disciplines in any institutes of higher studies whatsoever must have a mandate from the competent ecclesiastical authority.
(ND ignores this, AFAIK.)
Can. 813 The diocesan bishop is to have earnest pastoral care for students, even by erecting a parish or at least by designating priests stably for this ...
It is somewhat difficult. Notre Dame is controlled, theoretically, by a lay board of trustees. And the President belongs to the Order of the Holy Cross. A bishop has the right to boot a religious order out of his diocese, although that would be very unusual, but he doesn’t have direct authority over a member of a religious order. It’s not like a parish priest.
He could, as you say, close Notre Dame Masses to outsiders, but I’m not sure what good that would do. It would inconvenience people who like to attend Mass there, but it wouldn’t really inconvenience Notre Dame.
We went through this with the Jesuits. Pope JP II even tried to impose an orthodox head upon the Order at one point, but it didn’t go over, and they have returned to their old ways. This despite the fact that the Jesuits take a fourth vow: to obey the Pope. Their new General seems to be just as bad as the old one.
I’d say that he has made a pretty strong public statement, and hopefully more bishops will fall in behind him.
Is the president of ND a fruitcake?
I am not qualified to express such an opinion. He is ostensibly a cleric. I was excoriated here by many for disrespecting a liberal (by pointing out that he was a liberal and a liar) (pardon the redundancy) who pretended to be a cleric on the internet when he was some form of defrocked former temporary deacon in real life, so I try hard not to disrespect or denigrate those who are or pretend to be clerics. Therefore, that question is above my pay grade. Thanks for asking though.
Pretend is the key word. It would explain the pro-Obama bias.
LOL !!
:)
Your posts are very informative. i think the good bishop needs people to pray for him and his discernment.
When I see Phil Donahue, I think it’s Ralphie from “Christmas Story” all grown up. I will send you some Ovaltine for that “throw up” taste to go away.
Phil just needs a popgun.
Have you ever even been to Indiana? I lived in Bishop D’Arcy’s Diocese up to two years ago. He will never measure up to your vaulted standards. So Drop It. He’s a good man.
hee hee
Thanks You. I’ll take another look.
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