Posted on 02/28/2009 11:31:01 AM PST by BGHater
No, I don't. I know what liberty is and isn't from a practical life experience as opposed to reading what someone else's ideation of liberty is.
OK, let’s just agree that the price of “perfection” of liberty to own ANY damn dog we want is that some innocent people will die or be badly mauled to sustain that perfect liberty. And that’s OK with us just as long as the “collateral damage” happens to someone we don’t know, care about or love. And, of course, it shouldn’t happen to us.
Substitute the word “gun” for “dog” and get back to me.
Or did Columbine make you re-evaluate your feelings about the Second Amendment?
Can you say “hypocrite”?
I would have to reread Koehler, (it’s been 20 years ago) but I recall his heeling being taught by the dog making mistakes (being out of heel position) and being corrected for it (with a pop of the choke). I don’t recall the dog being shown, except to avoid the correction. I could misremember, however as I only trained one dog that way. It’s not that I think the method is cruel (if used by someone who honestly understands how to make the correction properly) but I found that my golden, while she got thru her CD in 4 tries (only failed once) with only 6 weeks of training, she wasn’t a very happy worker, like my goldens trained using my hodge podge method involving more rewards and fewer corrections. But, as I said, my memory could be faulty.
Other poster is essentially right; dogs and firearms are NOT exactly the same, BUT the same argument about “just 1 is too many” can be used.
Guns go off accidentally, no matter what a good responsible owner you are. Dropping a loaded weapon at a most inopportune time can cause someone’s death - possibly your very own loved 1. (Don’t think this hasn’t happened. Hell, 1 of my [military] cousins got shot in the thigh while horse-riding with a friend with loaded weapons and it fell from the saddle.)
So, we should ban all guns, because accidents do happen.
Same with cars.
No, you don’t pop them on heel to show them, you use a natural inclination to avoid unpleasantness. For heeling - done 1st - you simply “go the other direction” in a sharp sudden manner. Then the dog simply sees this as needing to watch where you go, and conform to where you go. In fact, heel never involves genuine “correction” in the form of the dog KNOWING that you deliberately did something to him unpleasant.
My old GS who learned with Koehler was as spirited and joyous as she ever was, and she needed 50 genuine corrections on the Down to finally submit to the command (my thigh was aching for a week).
Koehler in fact mentions in relation to the “avoiding unpleasantness” (my terminology) the correlation of tying the dog to a tree. The dog may try to rush away when tied to this new tree, and gets a very sharp surprise. But he doesn’t hate or fear the tree. It just happened to stop him. He simply learns he can’t fight its strength and stops running pell-mell to the end of the tie-out.
Already been there and done that. Guns are inanimate objects and are therefore as predictable as the people who own them. Keep them out of the hands of felons and the mentally unstable and things should be fine. I staunchly support the 2nd amendment.
Try reading prior posts before you start loosely accusing others of hypocracy.
Someone with he lofty title of "Emperor" should be capable of distinguishing the difference between a living autonomous organism and and inanimate object.
No, what you and the other poster are unwilling or unable to acknowledge is that cars and guns are NOT independent actors - they are totally in your control and do what a human being tells them to do. Yes, accidents occur but then the human actor can be held responsible for the consequences.
But OK, since you don't want to draw the line there, and even one is too many, shall we permit your neighbor to keep a "tame" chimp or a "tame" tiger as a pet because that's what he wants to do? Why should the government have the authority to deny him the liberty to own an animal if that satisfies his passion for wild creatures.
No, I am ALL TOO willing to acknowledge the difference between gun and dog - hence “NOT exactly the same, BUT...”
I have long been pilloried by the other side for declaring PBTs more dangerous than others, and that animals are autonomous and act on their own, thus owners shouldn’t be fully liable, perhaps. So don’t act as if your side is the only 1 I’ve offended. I’ve been holding this stance a long time, offending all concerned.
Back to it - again, like guns, “wild” animals are not the same as a domestic animal - especially 1 which is not a species in itself but a mere .1% of a species.
As such, gov morons will not be able to distinguish between a true PBT, a mix of some sort, and a dog with absolutely no PBT (see Labs and other assorted for dogs mistaken for PBTs). As living animals of a mere tiny % of a species, they are not machines like guns and so cannot be positively identified. For me, that makes it null and void trying to ban them.
OK, I have said all I can say that I think is rational on the issue. I for one am willing to ban the PBT even if it means that government will make some mistakes in interpretation and possibly overreach occasionally. Considering that we have a gazillion other breeds of dogs I see no purpose in keeping such an unpredictable and potentially dangerous breed.
However I do appreciate the civility of your discussion and I understand your POV. Thanks again.
You’re welcome. Thank you. And frankly, I’d admit this can be a conundrum of just what to do.
BTW, pit-bull terrier is not a breed, but a whole type (”class” if you will) of dog comprising many breeds (thus, technically some mutts can be “pure” PBT if each parent is of that type). Akin to the “greyhound” and “spitz” types of dogs. It really shouldn’t even be capitalized, although I’ve let myself get in the habit.
I don’t think I suggested the dog would hate or fear the trainer. I just find a more positive method (yes, with food rewards ) was more fun for both of us. My dogs were better workers. But I also think some breeds work better with different methods.
Yes, you didn’t say that. I just stuck it there more for any other on-lookers who’ve been told never to give a dog the “evil eye” because it might scar him for life.
LOL I so agree that kids and dogs both need to have a correction when they intentionally do something they are not supposed to do. Otherwise, what do they do when someone doesn’t have a cookie stuck in their face?!
;)
“and chihuahuas are all crazier than other dogs, which breed is next?”
How about the rabidly vicious bird killing English Springer Spaniel?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.