Posted on 10/12/2008 6:05:35 PM PDT by pissant
I noted that Obama did not take his kids to visit grandma in Hawaii. I assumed that the reason that Obama keeps his grandma under cover is because she is angry about something that he has done and that he didn’t want his kids to hear them argue.
I don’t think that the birth certificate thing is what everyone thinks it is. The citizenship issue would be enough to overthrow the election. I think that it is something much less important, but would be enough to turn a lot of white voters against him. I think that Barack is not his given name. I think it is an assumed name, something that all good Black Muslims do. It is only speculation, but I think that it is a good possibility.
That's only a reasonable conclusion if you completely ignore the fact that there is no evidence, other than an unconfirmed quote by his Kenyan grandmother, that Obama was born anywhere other than Hawaii.
You wanting to believe this fiction does not make it so.
No, they don't. The generally accepted reading of the natural born citizen clause is that it refers to someone who is a citizen at birth, rather than through naturalization. The Constitution and Federal law do not recognize any other class of American citizen, despite your repeated specualtions to the contrary. Both McCain and Barrack were citizens at birth (McCain's due to the fact that he was born to two American citizens and Obama due to the fact that he was born in Hawaii) and are Constitutionally qualified to be President.
Joined July 10, 2008 to argue Obama’s case here?
Don’t think we are going to pay much attention thank you.
First, where's the evidence that he was born in Hawaii, i. e., bona fide Hawaiian BC? I don't see any.
More importantly, look at Philip Berg's court brief. Berg faces professional discipline if he's deliberately lying on a material fact in his case. No motive to claim in his papers that Obama was born at a specific hospital in Kenya if he can't back it up with evidence. If you read TexasDarlin's blog, you will know that copies of Obama's Kenyan birth certificate are now in the hands of Americans. That has been corroborated by Ed Cole, as quoted in at least two FR posts.
She was on her way to, not from, Honolulu.
Blade has a number of unsubstantiated comments on all of these threads--he joined at a time when the Obama birth in Kenya issue was developing and has consistently argued the Obama party line position.
His birth certificate has been posted online on his website and we've all seen it here on FR. Other than some arcane complaints that the PDF is not perfect (which is not unusual, from my understanding), no one has shown any evidence as to why we shouldn't accept that document.
More importantly, look at Philip Berg's court brief. Berg faces professional discipline if he's deliberately lying on a material fact in his case.
I'm a lawyer too, and Berg's brief is embarassingly bad. The man is a kook. I'm sure he believe everything he put in his brief, but if you're expecting his lawsuit to be succesful, you're in for a surprise.
No motive to claim in his papers that Obama was born at a specific hospital in Kenya if he can't back it up with evidence.
And yet he has not shown this evidence.
If you read TexasDarlin's blog, you will know that copies of Obama's Kenyan birth certificate are now in the hands of Americans. That has been corroborated by Ed Cole, as quoted in at least two FR posts.
If the Kenyan birth certificate exists, then they should release it. What are they waiting for at this point?
Facts matter, even when they lead to conclusions that you might not like, politically. You've repeatedly claimed, without any evidence whatsoever, that the Presidential candidates for both the GOP and the Democratic party are not eligible for the Presidency. You're trying to rely on some conversations with purported "Constitutional lawyers" for your claims. Well, I'm a lawyer, too, and I'm going to call you on your unsubstantiated views.
Don’t think we are going to pay much attention thank you.
From your posts on this matter, I see it is pretty clear that you have no interest in any facts that go against the fictional world you have made up here.
No, there isn't.
What was Stanley Ann doing in Seattle (on Mercer Island) before she had learned to change diapers?
Provide some evidence for this claim.
Blade has a number of unsubstantiated comments on all of these threads--he joined at a time when the Obama birth in Kenya issue was developing and has consistently argued the Obama party line position.
If we're going to make insinuations as to motives here, you're the one arguing that John McCain should be removed from the ballot. So, what's your motivation?
What was posted on his web site and here on FR was a an alleged copy of a "Certificate of Live Birth," not a Birth Certificate. It had enough irregularities to declare it a fraud. I suppose that if someone handed you some three dollar bills with pictures of Adolf Hitler on it in exchange for some goods you had, you would accept them - no questions asked.
...if you're expecting his lawsuit to be successful, you're in for a surprise.
Frankly, I wouldn't care if his lawsuit was not successful (according to the usual definition of "successful" lawsuits). I would hope that the suit becomes moot with Obama's defeat on Nov. 4. Berg can serve his cause best by releasing a copy of Obama's Kenyan birth certificate - which I believe he possesses - to the public. A sizeable portion of the electorate would then be going to the voting booth with the foreknowledge that a foreign born individual and likely alien was illegally on the ballot running for the highest office in the land.
Okay, on that we can certainly agree.
Okay put the birth certificate on hold for a moment, where are the medical records and applications for Columbia and Harvard??? This is definitely fishy, or at least worth looking into.
BTW, as long as we're on the subject of school records, you might want to know that young Barry Soetoro's Indonesian school record indicated his religion to be Islam.
“If the Kenyan birth certificate exists, then they should release it. What are they waiting for at this point?”
Why release it now and give the ObamaMedia nearly 3 weeks to cover for him while he runs around crying racism and whining about how unfair it all is?
‘’His grandmother bragged that her grandson is about to be President of the United States and is so proud because she was present DURING HIS BIRTH IN KENYA, in the delivery room. ‘’’’
I read the sme thing months ago, but does anyone has a screen shot of the interview, now?
“”Frankly, I wouldn’t care if his lawsuit was not successful (according to the usual definition of “successful” lawsuits). I would hope that the suit becomes moot with Obama’s defeat on Nov. 4. Berg can serve his cause best by releasing a copy of Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate - which I believe he possesses - to the public. A sizeable portion of the electorate would then be going to the voting booth with the foreknowledge that a foreign born individual and likely alien was illegally on the ballot running for the highest office in the land.””
Say it again and again and keep raising the issue everywhere we go!
“Most Constitutional lawyers think it requires birth in the geographical limits of the 50 states. Neither McCain nor Obama qualify.”
OK you had me ready to concede the point to you got this part. I don’t think there’s any question McCain is a natural born citizen. Not only was he born to American parents in a US Naval hospital but he was only overseas because his father was a Naval officer stationed there on orders. If “most constitutional lawyers” are right, then you’ve effectively barred thousands of military brats from ever being eligible for the job of commander in chief.
Beyond that, I just read the code again (yes I’m a lawyer) 1408 says nothing about “wedlock” being broadly defined. What’s more you’re confusing voidable marriage with void marriage. Voidable marriages (one party is below the age of consent or is of unsound mind or, my favorite, has a loathsome disease unknown to the other party) can be dissolved by the “wronged” party if they choose. But if they choose to stay married after they’ve learned of the voidable condition (or reach the age of consent) then they’ve ratified the marriage and its no longer voidable.
Void marriages (bigamy, incest, same-sex in most states) are a legal nullity from day one and there is nothing either party can do to save the marriage. Since bigamy is in the category of void (and not voidable), Obama was born out of wedlock.
Finally, if a marriage is illegal under US law (even if legal under, say, Kenyan law), then it doesn’t count as a valid marriage under the US immigration code. Otherwise a Muslim immigrant could bring his 4 wives with him under a green card visa, and for now at least, that ain’t happening.
OK you had me ready to concede the point to you got this part. I don’t think there’s any question McCain is a natural born citizen. Not only was he born to American parents in a US Naval hospital but he was only overseas because his father was a Naval officer stationed there on orders. If “most constitutional lawyers” are right, then you’ve effectively barred thousands of military brats from ever being eligible for the job of commander in chief.
Beyond that, I just read the code again (yes I’m a lawyer) 1408 says nothing about “wedlock” being broadly defined. What’s more you’re confusing voidable marriage with void marriage. Voidable marriages (one party is below the age of consent or is of unsound mind or, my favorite, has a loathsome disease unknown to the other party) can be dissolved by the “wronged” party if they choose. But if they choose to stay married after they’ve learned of the voidable condition (or reach the age of consent) then they’ve ratified the marriage and its no longer voidable.
Void marriages (bigamy, incest, same-sex in most states) are a legal nullity from day one and there is nothing either party can do to save the marriage. Since bigamy is in the category of void (and not voidable), Obama was born out of wedlock.
Finally, if a marriage is illegal under US law (even if legal under, say, Kenyan law), then it doesn’t count as a valid marriage under the US immigration code. Otherwise a Muslim immigrant could bring his 4 wives with him under a green card visa, and for now at least, that ain’t happening.
Well first, as to McCain, let's get the facts straight.
No, he wasn't born in a US Naval hospital; no he wasn't even born in a place where his Naval Officer father was stationed (the Canal Zone--if that made a difference which I believe it does not).
Unlike Obama, McCain is an honest man and his birth story is posted on line--his birth certificate says clearly that he was born in a private hospital in another country.
So then you want to argue what the term "natural born" means. Under relatively clear principles of international law, a person is subject to the sovereign of the place where he is born. That sovereign dictates his responsibilities and duties--when he can leave; how he can act; and what he has to do to come back. The founders put the term "natural born" in the constitution to preclude a person who was subject to another sovereign from serving as President of the United States.
Having been around when the argument came up with respect to Goldwater, Barry was viewed as eligible because no foreign sovereign ever controlled the territory of Arizona in the time between the date he was born and the time it was incorporated in the US.
It's not fair to bar McCain or other military offspring? Maybe. Their parents had control and could have shipped stateside for the birth. But, ok, it's not fair--amend the Constitution. That's what the Supreme Court usually says in response to this kind of argument.
Wedlock? No. All Sec. 1408 says is "wedlock". Look at the annotations. The issue in 1408 is whether the person (born an alien) gets citizenship.
We've been through the issue of the Muslem with four wives--not a substantive question but rather the legal issue is whether he gets a visa to bring more than one wife along if he enters the US; or, in your hypothetical, would be, would we let him immigrate with more than one wife. Answer (when State doesn't make a mistake which has happened frequently) No. He can't come in until he dumps all his wives except one (or he can only bring one with him on a temporary visit).
And observe, he doesn't fail to get his visa or his immigration papers because he is not in wedlock for the reason that he has more than one wife which would be an arguably voidable bigamous relationship under US law; he fails to get in because he has four wedlocks which are all viewed as valid legally effective wedlocks for purposes of US immigration law.
My point about the loose interpretation of "wedlock" (look at the annotations) is that it means a de facto marriage arrangement. A common law marriage would suffice. For the most part, validity and efficacy of a marriage is a local law question. But in most jurisdictions, Stanley Ann's marriage to Obama would have been valid for most purposes until terminated, even though he had another wife, and even if the other wife was a US wife and the marriage was clearly criminally bigamous under US law. Some states, bigamous marriages are void; some states, only voidable; many states have conflicting cases on the question.
It looks most likely to me that they were married in Kenya at the end of the term break in the winter of 1961 (February 2) and that is where she remained until after the birth. It appears they went to Kenya to get married because Obama Sr. knew that the marriage would constitute the crime of Bigamy in the US and would be legal and meet societal norms in Kenya. Thus the marriage would be legal where contracted.
But for immigration law purposes, the federal court makes a decision on whether the purported marital relationship is "wedlock" or not for purposes of the specific statute under which the question is presented.
How old was the woman when she had Obama’s dad? 10? I wouldn’t doubt it. She doesn’t look a day over 65, if that. I wonder if Obama keeps in contact with Granny. He sure does have a dysfunctional family, a mother and father that didn’t raise him, a granny over in another country who it seems like he has nothing to do with, a half brother living in a hut. If sounds like Jerry Springer to me.
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