Posted on 08/15/2008 1:55:52 PM PDT by lupo-de-mare
There was no legitimate excuse for either our actions toward FRY or Russia's actions toward Georgia and I'm not too happy with mexico's actions toward the USA either.
But what's more hilarious is that you and Weasely seem to be in agreement on Russia despite coming from opposite directions.
Kosovo went independent and in fact was encouraged to do so because of what happened. I don't know the feeling on the ground, but it seemed at the time to be a reasonable thing to do.
As for Georgia, this situation is only similar in one respect, there was no ethnic cleaning here, not now or in 1921 when they were initially protected. The reason they were protected was because Russia fomented it by turning them against Georgia and the people became labeled as essentially traitors.
This is still true today, and that's why the Russians continue to foment. It works as a great way to keep the entire country unstable which was Russia's aim from the beginning.
This is not a little chunk of land, it's a fair sized percentage and it seems to me, that under the circumstances, this province will require peace keepers for some time to come. The agreement I would like to see, is something along the lines of the U.N. or U.S. doing the peace thing, and get rid of the fomenting Russians. Over time, this province could be salvaged with the ones who must continue to hate and despise Georgians simply selling out and moving a few mile north. In time it will fix it's self. But you gotta get the Russians out of the hen house.
Kosovo is really too small to exist without lots of help, and one day they may come back to Serbia, but for now, I have no real issue with it.
There is no real comparison between the two, and the Muslim West is even less threatened by Georgia. Much less.
Get the Russians out, and time will cure the rest with some assistance from a neutral party.
The Russians have a different view of course, but they have massaged it and justified it by using commentary that I criticized. Unfortunately, a lot of Americans seem to be buying their distortions, and it does not make me very happy. The ethnic cleaning that occurred in Georgia has happened twice. The first time in 1921 when my Grandparents fled the country, and the second time is going on right now. Both were directed at Georgians by Russians and their mobs of mercenaries.
No, me and Weasley share only two things in common. We were both in the Army, and we both hail from Arkansas.
I don't endorse Russia's actions and I don't take issue with any of the history you've cited;
But the US has zero license to preach to Putin when he is doing no more or less than we did in the Balkans - and Russia has a long history of conflict with Georgia as opposed to Yugoslavia's 20th century history of nuanced neutrality and open aid to the US in WW2.
I don't mind us walking up to Russia and telling them we won't stand for it - but not from any presumed moral heights.
I do object to independent Kosovo because that was specifically disallowed when we graciously stopped bombing Serbs - we signed up to it and we tossed it away as soon as possible.
As to fomenting - there were US advisors, equipment and assurances provided to the KLA well in advance.
I didn't suggest Georgia posed any muslim threat, rather that our actions in FRY created one in the Balkans.
Disclosures:
I got out of the Army in '73 with a bunch of other reservists, should have gone for WO but didn't. While I was in, I served with an ex Ukrainian 'White' soldier (subsequently, Red Army, then SS, then Fr. Foreign Legion, then our side) who was married to a lady from Georgia and both would back your story to the hilt - I believed him as well. I was so amused by our Balkan adventures that I cut off all contact with my best friend from the Army because he was one of those advisors during the run-up and well after it.
(I'm not in the military, but I did spend a couple of years in Arkansas)
So if tomorrow Serbia move their troops in Kosovo, We will say that Serbia have right to protect their territorial integrity.
Yeah right.
My wife have excellent definition of word terrorist : “Anybody that work against US interest.”
Norton and pepsionice are right— nobody’s trying to excuse Russian actions here, and they have to be discouraged from any further military adventurism. But it was incredibly stupid to recognize Kosovo unilaterally like that, and give Russia a pretext for South Ossetia.
There were no good guys and bad guys in Serbia. The Islamofascist Albanian KLA— which has links to Osama bin Laden— was just as guilty of perpetrating atrocities against Serbs, Gypsies and even fellow Albanians as was Milosevic. Yet Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton needed something to distract attention from Blow Job-gate and Bill’s impeachment, while Madeleine Albright needed something to distract from her incompetence. Then George W. Bush stupidly embraced the same policy and Condi Rice, right up there with Albright in the incompetence sweepstakes, urged outright recognition of Kosovo— an outright violation of international law, UN Resolution 1244, and the old Westphalian principle of international sovereignty.
If Kosovo can just break off like that, then so can Aztlan in the US Southwest, so can Hawaii, so can the Sioux, so can Florida, so can Vermont. All one needs to do is start up some nasty attacks, organize a few gangs, then complain to the international press about government “oppression” when the authorities respond, and voila— you have a pretext for independence. It’s coming to the USA as well.
Russia is just applying the same logic to South Ossetia. I don’t agree with Russia anymore than anybody else does, but we opened the door wide open to them.
The solution, simply, is to withdraw recognition for Kosovo, and demand Russia do the same for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Almost all countries in the world have not recognized Kosovo, including close US allies like Israel and the Philippines, and it will never have a UN seat. It’s also not viable— it’s a narcostate, and the KLA specializes in human smuggling and weapons trafficking.
So just do an exchange— Russian peacekeepers allowed to join with US and European peacekeepers in Kosovo, while we get to station our own peacekeepers in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Not ideal, but imposes some semblance of stability and exchange.
“And we all recall what the Russians did when the chechens requested independence. Ok.”
We all recall the Chechen’s killing school children, so my sympathy for them is somewhat limited. If you want to play tit-for-tat, choose again, because Chechens have a....PR problem.
And the Russians have a consistency problem. Along with us.
“And the Russians have a consistency problem. Along with us.”
Consistency is irrelevant in the end. Russians will do what they want until the rest of the world stops them.
When we’ve erred on consistency, it usually is on the side of more freedom, not less. The Russians have never done that.
NATO met today and seems to be ready to do a lot more than I had expected. Russia has made itself the enemy of the world.
“You do know that irregular chechens are working with the Russian army in Georgia?”
Oh yeah. They are ruthless fighters. I forget who, when asked what they needed for battle said “Just give me one Chechen” in response.....
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