Russia's War is the West's Challenge (WaPo Op-Ed by President of Georgia)

The Washington Post ^ | Wednesday, August 13, 2008 | Mikheil Saakashvili

[LibLieSlayer]

I would point you to many websites that prove you wrong... but I do not want to stress your intellect. I am not Russian... proudly not Russian... but I know Russians. You just have a Russian mindset.

LLS

[calcowgirl]

Within 24 hours of agreeing to a cease-fire, Russian forces were rampaging through Gori; blocking the port of Poti; sinking Georgian vessels; and -- worst of all -- brutally purging Georgian villages in South Ossetia, raping women and executing men.

This guy sounds like John Kerry.

[microgood]

The man has a well known record as President. Perhaps you should read up on that before casting dispersions.

He has a decent pro-Western record. He is also a politician and in his little essay he never even mentions the reason the West and Russia have such an interest in this country.

We are not in that country because it is a budding democracy. Just like the lies our politicians (Clinton and now Bush) told us about Serbia and Kosovo, we are there to control oil and energy supplies to Western Europe.

He may be a pro-Western politician, but he is a politician, and therefore everything he says can never be taken at face value.

I actually believed our politicians about Serbia and Kosovo until I saw Camp Bondsteel, and now I do not believe anyone, including Bush, with regard to anything happening in that region, until they acknowledge what is really going on.

[SampleMan]

We are not in that country because it is a budding democracy. Just like the lies our politicians (Clinton and now Bush) told us about Serbia and Kosovo, we are there to control oil and energy supplies to Western Europe.

What a load. We patrol the world's oceans to maintain free trade over them, not to control the trade. You don't seem to be able to understand the difference. You strangely make a moral equivalence between the United States backing a country's right to be free and trade freely with Russia's position that they have the right to control another country's action.

Sounds like you need change you can believe in.

[Sun]

Georgia’s President Saakashvili sent troops to Iraq to help us out. I trust him.

[microgood]

What a load. We patrol the world's oceans to maintain free trade over them, not to control the trade.

We control the trade. We intercept and board vessels all the time, especially North Korean ones. But essentially you are correct here, we keep the sea lanes open for the world and that is a good thing.

You strangely make a moral equivalence between the United States backing a country's right to be free and trade freely with Russia's position that they have the right to control another country's action.

I make no moral equivalence between Russia and us. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys. But the nations we involve ourselves the most in are the ones that we want to influence to advance our national interests. That is why we do not spend the energy in fledgling African nations that we spend in nations like Georgia, one of the few places that oil can get from the Caspian Sea to Europe without going across Russian terroritory. And just like in the Ukraine, we try to influence elections in these democracies with our CIA, just like the Russians do with their KGB.

My whole point here is that we need to be honest why we are in these countries doing what we are doing, and I hate being lied to by our politicians as to why. The more they lie, the more they undermine the support of the American people.

I believe our positions are defensible but the politicians think that we are so stupid that they have to lie to get us to support them.

Sounds like you need change you can believe in.

The standard "if you disagree with me you are a troll" argument. Well, I think before WWII we were too isolationist, and I think now we are the opposite extreme, too interventionist. Our Congress and President think they control the world, and I think that is dangerous, especially in light of current economic conditions in this country (the dollar has lost 40% of its value in the last 8 years) and our deficits are spiraling out of control.

With Social Security and Medicare rearing their ugly heads the next decades, we need to understand our limitations, and deal with them, or end up like all the previous world powers.

We sure think there are no limits to how we can and should project American power and influence, but there are, and the sooner we realize it, the better we will be able to survive this dangerous world we live in. Every day we reduce the options of our children and grandchildren with our overreaching and unsustainable foreign policy decisions.

[calcowgirl]

My whole point here is that we need to be honest why we are in these countries doing what we are doing, and I hate being lied to by our politicians as to why. The more they lie, the more they undermine the support of the American people.

I believe our positions are defensible but the politicians think that we are so stupid that they have to lie to get us to support them.

I agree wholeheartedly.

A bit of truth and intelligence would be welcome compared to the warring propaganda machines at work today.

[Sun]

“The signal Russia is sending, analysts say, is that it will not tolerate any further NATO expansion into its backyard, and it will use the existence of Russian communities in former Soviet republics to retain its influence across the region.”

excerpt http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=34043

Putin is a big bully, and as a trucker put it on a radio show, he needs an azz whooping.

[wideawake]

You apparently don't realize that being Putin's useful idiot is even more pathetic than being Lenin's.

Wipe Vlad's semen from your chin and step away from the keyboard.

[wideawake]

This guy sounds like John Kerry.

What a bizarrely nasty comparison.

John Kerry was lying about his own country for its enemies' benefit.

Saakashvili is telling the truth about his country's enemy for his own country's benefit.

[McGruff]

I have staked my country's fate on the West's rhetoric about democracy and liberty

I say we support Georgia but I have a question for their president. Why did you decide to start this conflict when we warned you not to? You had to know there were a whole bunch of Russians just over the border. Your people deserve to know why.

[SampleMan]

I make no moral equivalence between Russia and us. ...And just like in the Ukraine, we try to influence elections in these democracies with our CIA, just like the Russians do with their KGB.

Do you read your posts for consistency before you send them. Which leader have we poisoned? How is helping someone have free choice and hoping they'll be friendly the equivalent of standing on someone's head and demanding obedience? If you don't want to draw moral equivalence, then stop doing it.

That we act strategically where it will have the greatest results, vice blindly diluting our resources out over the globe is not an act of moral hypocrisy. We could pure hundreds of billions into Africa and have little to no affect. It only takes a few millions of dollars to destabilize an African country, but billions to build it back up. Countries like Georgia are self-starters and only require a temporary umbrella of protection. Africa is best served by working to eliminate those that want Africa destabilized.

My whole point here is that we need to be honest why we are in these countries doing what we are doing, and I hate being lied to by our politicians as to why. The more they lie, the more they undermine the support of the American people.

You cynically refuse to accept the obvious. That free countries are good for us, while totalitarian countries are bad for us. And yes we choose where our help will do the most good.

Are you equally cynical about the fire department. i.e. That they lie to you, because they don't really care about people's homes, they just care about stopping the fire from spreading, and if they were really against wild fires, they would fight it everywhere equally and not just focus on certain critical areas?

I believe our positions are defensible but the politicians think that we are so stupid that they have to lie to get us to support them.

No one has made a secret about Georgia being a transit of Caspian energy, but our leadership isn't backing Georgia to control that energy, they are backing Georgia to prevent Russia from controlling it, also not a secret. There is a world of difference between those two motives. Wanting my local road open to the free flow of traffic is not the equivalent to a gang wanting to set up a roadblock and control who passes. Surely you see the difference.

Additionally, we have done a great deal to protect all of the former Soviet Republics (who desire help) from slipping back under the grasp of their former master. Are you suggesting that we have secret designs on all of them as well?

Our Congress and President think they control the world, and I think that is dangerous, especially in light of current economic conditions in this country (the dollar has lost 40% of its value in the last 8 years) and our deficits are spiraling out of control.

You either confront bullies or you let them get stronger. There is no third choice. Our deficits have very, very little to do with our foreign expenditures.

With Social Security and Medicare rearing their ugly heads the next decades, we need to understand our limitations, and deal with them, or end up like all the previous world powers.

Like the French and British who retreated from the world scene and focused all of their resources on social welfare? I don't think they make for much of a model for success.

We sure think there are no limits to how we can and should project American power and influence, but there are, and the sooner we realize it, the better we will be able to survive this dangerous world we live in. Every day we reduce the options of our children and grandchildren with our overreaching and unsustainable foreign policy decisions.

40 million people died during WWII and most of the major powers bankrupted, because free people were too timid to act when they should have. Those dead and their never born progeny never had any options did they, and what of all that lost wealth? Preventing a general war is costly, but one week of general war makes every other possible expenditure appear trivial.

What is your trip wire for confronting Russia if not Georgia? Ukraine? Poland? Latvia? Finland? Germany? Turkey? Japan? Alaska? Montana?

[calcowgirl]

Hyperbolic rhetoric does not benefit anyone.

While I support George, Saakashvili is not doing himself any favors when he speaks like this.

[wideawake]

Hyperbolic rhetoric does not benefit anyone.

And you know that it's hyperbole because . . .

Saakashvili is not doing himself any favors when he speaks like this

So it's in his interest to downplay what's happening in his country?

[microgood]

Do you read your posts for consistency before you send them. Which leader have we poisoned? How is helping someone have free choice and hoping they'll be friendly the equivalent of standing on someone's head and demanding obedience? If you don't want to draw moral equivalence, then stop doing it.

We are not automatically immune from being judged by our actions because we are the good guys generally. And America has done some morally bad things in the past. We did not poison anyone in the Ukraine, but there is sometimes a fine line between promoting democracy and interfering with a country's internal affairs. I also believe our CIA's overthrow of Iran was indefensible as was our bombing of Yugoslavia under false pretenses and establishing a US base in Kosovo. And our bid for an independent Kosovo is indefensible in my opinion

Assuming the president of Georgia is not doing a rope-a-dope of George Bush, we may be right there, but I am waiting to hear the actual details of what each side did before I decide on this conflict.

Like the French and British who retreated from the world scene and focused all of their resources on social welfare? I don't think they make for much of a model for success.

Yet with our fiscal policies we are heading down that same road. Actually, though, I am more worried about us ending up like Rome than England. And I do believe part of the Russian/Iran/China strategy is to do all they can to deplete our resources by drawing us into as many situations like this as they can. And until we get our energy and fiscal houses in order, we are vunerable to this tactic.

40 million people died during WWII and most of the major powers bankrupted, because free people were too timid to act when they should have.

True. Yet I believe we have gone to the other extreme. The Soviet Union collapsed partly because it over extended itself as did Rome.

What is your trip wire for confronting Russia if not Georgia? Ukraine? Poland? Latvia? Finland? Germany? Turkey? Japan? Alaska? Montana?

I think we need to be cautious with states bordering Russia with large populations loyal to the former Soviet Union, but I would absolutely defend countries like Poland, Germany, Czech Republic. We need to get those countries into NATO as soon as possible.

[microgood]

This post has a good analysis of the situation. At least one that takes a broad view of the situation:

The Russo-Georgian War and the Balance of Power