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Editorial: Stop using SWAT teams on civilians
Examiner ^
| 8/13/08
Posted on 08/13/2008 3:09:59 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: Cyman
"I agree that the SWAT team concept has gotten out of hand but is everyone that is calling for their prohibition willing to accept the shootouts that will occur when a couple of uniformed officers try to execute a warrant?"
You mean it would be too hard on them to nab the guy as he's coming out of the 7/11 with a big gulp in one hand and a chili cheese dog in the other???? Didn't David Koresh always go on a run by himself every morning??? The ATF could have just arrested him then with no incident.
21
posted on
08/13/2008 3:36:37 PM PDT
by
rednesss
(Fred Thompson - 2008)
To: DuncanWaring
This is a problem spinning out of control. It needs to be curbed. The best way to do that bis to make certain they don't get enough money to play JBT. Of course, the Feds will have to be closely monitored to make sure they don't start funding this insanity. They may be doing so already, carefully masking what it is for; they long ago abandoned any notion of what is right or wrong when it comes to duties, obligations and responsibilities. All three leveals of government are infected with the same disease.
We need a complete changeout to fix this.
22
posted on
08/13/2008 3:37:28 PM PDT
by
Czar
((Still Fed Up to the Teeth with Washington))
To: autumnraine
Really wish you'd get your message across to the druggies ~ that no one's life is worth drugs. They should simply surrender, let the cops in, lay on the floor, do their little search, etc.
Not everyone who knocks at your door wants to steal your stuff ~ so, just be good, be peaceful, and there'll be no need for the cops to even take guns with them when they do their little raids.
Now, that said, can you tell me why drug dealers act so paranoic. Do they really think that some of their "customers" are really thieves in disguise who might kill them for their stash.
How absurd. Don't they know that all druggies are quiet types who wouldn't hurt a fly.
23
posted on
08/13/2008 3:38:11 PM PDT
by
muawiyah
To: yazdankurd
Or, just shoot the mean, ugly, nasty ones.
24
posted on
08/13/2008 3:39:02 PM PDT
by
muawiyah
To: Cyman
I agree that the SWAT team concept has gotten out of hand Thank you. I agree.
Because they have these guys trained up and ready to go, they tend to use them as a first recourse rather than the last.
I love the idea of overwhelming force when force is required. I don't like the idea of militarized cops kicking down a door when they haven't yet tried knocking. There are cases where knocking is too dangerous. Thats when you call SWAT. Not when you have an old lady, or a middle-aged couple padding around in their pajamas. I think the burden should be on the cops to show that overwhelming force was required.
I would normally side with the cops, but there have been a couple of SWAT cases lately that have irritated me.
25
posted on
08/13/2008 3:39:20 PM PDT
by
marron
To: Czar
The militarization of local law enforcement organizations is a big problem. We have more than enough Jack Booted Thugs at the federal level and we sure as hell neither need nor want them at the local level. It's getting to the point that it's hard to distinguish the locals from the Feds. Also, the locals seem to enjoy assuming the JBT role. The a big problem is that the a$$hats with badges have forgotten something. Police are civilians.
26
posted on
08/13/2008 3:42:13 PM PDT
by
Centurion2000
(A citizen using a weapon to shoot a criminal is the ultimate act of independence from government.)
To: My dog Sam
Right on, and you are right about your dog... Matter of fact, I’d say that holds true on just about every dog I’ve met—or owned.
I saw this terminology “civilians” creeping in during the 70s, didn’t like it then, don’t like it now. Cops are civilians, period.
27
posted on
08/13/2008 3:43:33 PM PDT
by
brushcop
(We remember SSG Harrison Brown, PVT Andrew Simmons B CO 2/69 3ID KIA Iraq OIF IV)
To: marron
To: Cyman
I agree that the SWAT team concept has gotten out of hand but is everyone that is calling for their prohibition willing to accept the shootouts that will occur when a couple of uniformed officers try to execute a warrant? Can anyone tell me how many police officers lives, indeed suspects lives, have been saved utilizing their overwhelming force concept? How do you count tragedies that never happened? I think the main bone of contention boils down to two factors:
i) The 'overwhelming force' concept should only be used when the case warrants for it. For instance, if it is a raid on a MS-13 gang-house, neutralizing a hostage situation, or other high-risk scenarios that require maximum force. However, the stories that are coming out show SWAT teams being used for drug busts (e.g. the marijuana case above), serving warrants, and other situations that do not fit what SWAT was created for. After all, it is special weapons and tactics, isn't it?
ii) This is probably more important than the first one. The PD needs to be doing THOROUGH RESEARCH! If you are willing to use SWAT, which means you are moving with the premise that it is a dangerous subject that you are going to TRY to apprehend, then very thorough research needs to be done to ensure that you have the right address. There are too many cases of SWAT going left instead of right, knocking down the neighbor's house, or other cases of mistaken ID. If SWAT just knocked down the homes of FReepers, I would not be surprised if a gun fight broke out and people died (in most cases NOT the SWAT since they would be moving in with fingers on the trigger).
Anyways, SWAT is useful. The concept was created for a very real reason, and it has saved lives. However it is not an instrument to be used just for the heck of it, and warrant issues and marijuana busts are not what SWAT was made for. Furthermore, before releasing such a formidable force, proper research needs to be done to ensure that the target home is indeed the one people should be going for.
Take this case for instance ....a quick double-take would have indicated it was the mayor's house, which would have made any logical person think twice (not that mayors do not take dope ....cough cough Chicago .....but at least it should make someone check to see if their information is correct). However it seems that the fellas had no time for that.
29
posted on
08/13/2008 3:44:15 PM PDT
by
spetznaz
(Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
To: LibWhacker
An apologetic oops from the responsible officials just doesnt cut it anymore. The dogs are just the canary in the coal mine here. People are dying and the Constitution is being trampled.
30
posted on
08/13/2008 3:44:55 PM PDT
by
Drango
(A liberal's compassion is limited only by the size of someone else's wallet.)
To: spetznaz
31
posted on
08/13/2008 3:46:39 PM PDT
by
marron
To: marron
There are cases where knocking is too dangerous. Thats when you call SWAT. Not when you have an old lady, or a middle-aged couple padding around in their pajamas. I think the burden should be on the cops to show that overwhelming force was required. In this case especially, there was no reason for the cops doing what they did. They charged in like a bunch of aggresive cowboys.
In this case, they should have left a unit to observe the mayor's house, gotten a warrant, and sent uniformed and plainclothes cops to knock on the door to execute the warrant.
Instead, they barged in and shot this guy's dogs like a bunch of candy-asses because they felt "threatened." Cry me a river- what little candy-asses.
32
posted on
08/13/2008 3:47:13 PM PDT
by
Citizen Blade
("Please... I go through everyone's trash." The Question)
To: Gene Lalor
There is no reason other than a hostage situation for this sort of action.
33
posted on
08/13/2008 3:47:51 PM PDT
by
steve-b
(Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
To: LibWhacker
How ‘bout having cops stop calling the little people “civilians”?
34
posted on
08/13/2008 3:48:00 PM PDT
by
Cyber Liberty
(Who would McQueeg rather have mad at him: You or the liberals? FREE LAZAMATAZ!)
To: Chode
***back in the 80’s, the first SWAT team in the area on their first “Mission”, shot and killed one of their own guys...***
How did they spin that?
35
posted on
08/13/2008 3:50:28 PM PDT
by
wastedyears
(Show me your precious darlings, and I will crush them all)
To: Citizen Blade
One case that irritated me was Columbine, where SWAT sat outside for 3 hours until everyone was dead, then marched the survivors out as if they were the criminals.
I’m sure they were just following some kind of policy, but it irritated me to no end.
36
posted on
08/13/2008 3:50:56 PM PDT
by
marron
To: Cyman
In most cases, IMO, tragedies occur due to the lack of due diligence done by the LEOs.
37
posted on
08/13/2008 3:51:14 PM PDT
by
ratzoe
(damn, I miss Barbara Olson)
To: muawiyah
Since you're ignorant of the situation, let me educate you so that you'll know what you're talking about.
The package was sent "blind" to an address that had no relationship to the actual intended recipient (who was supposed to steal it from the porch).
38
posted on
08/13/2008 3:51:33 PM PDT
by
steve-b
(Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
To: marron
Im going to agree. SWAT should not be used against ordinary civilians. Who do you consider to be ordinary civilians and who isn't?
How do you tell before you go in?
Would you consider having 32 pounds of pot worth upwards of $100,000 delivered to their door and taken inside to make them something other than ordinary citizens?
While these officers didn't knock and then wait at the door, they also didn't just barge in before anyone realized they were there.
The mother-in-law in the house saw them approaching the house and started screaming.
The police said they started yelling who they were and burst in because of fear that the suspected drug dealers inside might be arming them selves and preparing organized resistance, or destroying evidence.
After they fact, police learned that the FedEx delivery guy was part of a drug ring. He was supposed to intercept the package before it reached the house.
The officers even waited about an hour after the package was taken inside before deciding to execute the warrant, however the Mayor saw that the package was addressed to his wife, who wasn't home, and decided not to open it. Therefore the people in the house didn't realize that a huge amount of drugs had been delivered to their house, and the police outside thought that they not only received it, but had to realize what it was by then.
A very bad series of events where the police what were basically reasonable decisions that led to a bad result.
At least up to when the dogs were shot. I have no idea if that was reasonable or not, but if the evidence shows that they chased the dog into another room and shot it in the back, it seems likely that wasn't reasonable, and the officer that did it needs to be held accountable.
To: All; LibWhacker
-
A carved post and a boulder mark the place where Eddie Mies gunned down his dad last year on the family's rustic homestead in Shingle Springs. Up the hill a little farther, among the dusty pines and chaparral, stands another wooden post and a cairn of smaller rocks. This is where Mies, who was 34, died of bullet wounds from the ensuing gun battle with El Dorado County deputies. Three deputies and a police dog also were hit in the firefight that morning; all survived. The bloody date was June 5, 2007. Karen Mies, staggering under the news that her...
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