Posted on 07/18/2008 6:28:41 AM PDT by wintertime
I don't buy that idea. Hands on with good equipment is much better for most people than a movie or the kitchen table in a typical home.
On another thread there has been some discussion about the usefulness of teaching set theory to middle and high school students. Why do this when on the college level set theory is reserved for the most advanced courses?
I don't see the purpose in set theory either, and I don't teach it. Unfortunately, some schools include pointless or less useful material, and I think this is one of those examples.
Well?....I have the same question. Why teach children how to extract DNA when in reality doing this procedure is reserved for the highest level biology courses ... Also ....Doing "Gee Whiz!" experiments consumes time that is **essential** for teaching the basics needed for higher level biology.
This was for homeschoolers and other volunteers, and part of the goal is to expose them to the fun part, plus she had a strong tie in to the AP curriculum, although I'm not the person to explain that one. I think it was a good use of our time (two of my kids got to do it, loved it, and one of the two is leaning toward a bio research career).
Were they the Ph.D research scientists designing and directing the research done in their labs or were they the technicians doing the grunt work under the direction of the Ph.D. research scientists. There is a big difference between the two positions.
PhDs, now second career teachers.
So.. any retard who is able to reproduce is qualified to teach math, right?
I don't buy that idea. Hands on with good equipment is much better for most people than a movie or the kitchen table in a typical home. ( RogerD)
My statement was referring to homeschooling, and I should have said that they would be available on-line for home study.
We are talking about middle school and basic high school biology. Of course, college level lab work would be best taught in a highly sophisticated college or university lab. That would, in my opinion make AP courses inferior to courses taught by professors in a university setting. It seems the medical schools and dental schools in my state have the same opinion of AP courses. They will not accept AP courses for pre-med requirements.
For high school level biology, excellent, high quality equipment and supplies could be rented or bought on-line, or borrowed from a homeschool cooperative. The course work and lab instruction could be given by a well educated teacher from India through real-time, face to face, telecommunications. Perhaps the child would wish to learn with only his Indian tutor. Perhaps the homeschooled student would prefer to join with others in his homeschool cooperative.
Yes, there may be a very **few** experiments that might not be of the same quality as those in an institutional school...but..In my opinion, the benefits of having one to one tutoring, being able to move at one's own pace, and avoiding the social pathology of instiutionalization is **well** worth having a somewhat lower quality experience with these very **few** experiments.
Please remember that less than 5 years ago online telecommunication tutoring from India and other third world nations did not exist. Today it is a thriving business. I believe that Tom Friedman, author of The World is Flat would agree with me that my proposal is entirely possible and may already exist.
Possibly on-line tutoring may solve one of the serious drawbacks of most institutional schools. Instiutional schools tend to be very lock-step and rigid as to what grade they will introduce certain material, and they have **long** period of inactivity during the summer. Inexpensive on-line tutoring by teachers from India and other third world nations might give the bright child a chance to zoom ahead and graduate years earlier from school. This is especially true if the child started his tutoring in kindergarten or first grade. It would also allow the slower child to get the extra one on one help he needs.
I think any reasonably educated, intelligent, and motivated parent can teach math, especially if they use Saxon Math. The Saxon Math books are so well writen that many homeschoolers do and have taught themselves math through Calculus. ( and passed the AP exam)
Today, there is on-line, face to face, tutoring available from highly educated and experienced teachers in India and other third world nations....so... Yes, I believe these educators are completely capable of teaching math to any motivated student whose parents exert a modicum of discipline.
That should read, “written”.
Whatever school you teach at is very unusual because most high schools have extreme difficulty finding math and science teachers that actually have the preparation to teach those subjects. This shortage, as I am sure you know, is why schools are resorting to alternative certification programs and are in some cases paying math and science teachers more than other teachers.
But let me get back to the point. What I said was “the average public school teacher can do less real math than my 12 year-old”. I didn’t say that my twelve year-old can do more math than you or your co-workers, nor did I say that he can teach calculus. I am quite confident about my assertion because the “average teacher” would be determined by including everyone from k through 12th grade. You and your colleagues are clearly far on the right side of the skill distribution and could easily find work in any school district. Nevertheless, most of the teachers today are math challenged, particularly because many of those under 40 had reform math inflicted on them and have to teach reform math based curricula.
Here is an anecdote that I think is a little closer to the norm than your school. I have a good friend who taught high school math in a district with a very good reputation. In that district the district math coordinator is a music major who is an affirmative action appointment. She has expressly told faculty that if the pythagorean theorem is not on the state accountability test they are not to teach it. Moreover, when one older math teacher objected, the coordinator told her that she would be put on a “personal growth program” if she didn’t comply. My friend also told me that if the district used Saxon there would a revolt because the children of the upper middle-class families who are the mainstay of the district would not be able to perform at a Saxon level for algebra, etc. The kids are bright enough, but the state approved math curriculum is simply not all that demanding (not everything that is labelled “algebra” is algebra). In addition, he mentioned that most of his colleagues would not be able to teach at the higher levels of Saxon because, like most teachers teaching math in schools, they really don’t have much math background. My friend has since found other employment, which is not hard for people with solid math skills...another reason capable math teachers are scarce in schools.
Regarding the following: “How many parents can extract DNA at home or even have the microscopes to observe the stages of cell division as we did today? How many have the facilities and materials for the chemistry experiments that should be done?”
Technology covers much of this. Homeschoolers get lots of instruction in math, science, foreign languages, and other advanced topics by dvd or over the web (sometimes real time, interactive - other times through streaming video). Homeschool co-ops fill other gaps, either because there are parents who are computer scientists, biologists, chemists, etc., or because they go out and hire someone. Because many homeschooled kids finish their high school material early, another common approach for enrichment is taking courses at the local community college. Increasingly we are seeing 18 year-olds with two years of transferrable credits.
You are right that public schools have a lot of equipment that isn’t readily available to families. While I recognize that others may disagree, I don’t think having elaborate labs for students in high school or junior high school (middle schools in some districts) is desireable. A strong case can be made that the limited time students have for science at the HS and Jr. HS levels is better spent on learning more of the basic scientific material very thoroughly and watching a teacher perform illustrative or classic experiments than by having 16 year-olds spending a lot of time doing the necessarily relatively trivial things that their knowledge level and that the school district lawyers and insurers will allow them to do. When I did high school chemistry, my lab partner and I understood the theoretical side well enough to realize that we didn’t really need to do the “experiment” to be able to write up the results. We did do the lab exercise, but the exercise was rather pointless.
Please don’ misunderstand me, the theme here is not that professionally competent teachers lack value. On the contrary, a really good teacher is a treasure. Many of us, however, believe the government school system is a very bad model for providing education today. I also think that many teachers are finding it harder and harder to stay in the system.
Hope you don’t mind a quibble...
Whitehead and Russell’s project was to demonstrate that all mathematics is derivable from formal logic (a claim called “logicism”). Alternatively, the project could be characterized by claiming that the vocabulary of math is a proper subset of the vocabulary of logic (this would be more of a “Carnapian” was of putting it). I think that the general consensus is that Whitehead and Russell failed. Among the reasons is their reliance on the axiom of infinity and the axiom of reducibility.
Now I feel that the time I invested in this subject in grad school was worth it ;-) It still won’t help with the checkbook.
“Anyone who says kids don’t need to know their math facts is wrong and needs to be watched very carefully on other issues too.” said Roger D to deafening applause..;-)
This is probably as good a “canary-in-the-coal-mine” test that anyone could come up with.
I’ll wager you have excellent strengths in other areas! :)
No argument from me; as I wrote in other posts; new math can be useful PROVIDED the traditional forms have been and continue to be taught.
Would you happen to be in So California? Possibly Orange County?
lol, Vinnie! You didn’t “ruin” your daughter at all; you just frightened the teacher who’d been expecting some new blank slates to teach upon. ;>
People today couldn’t make change no matter what you gave them. They can only give you back what the cash register tells them to return to you.
If only that were so...
Sometimes the alternative certification programs result in better qualified teachers, as they recruit teachers who have degrees in those subjects, just not the education courses. :-)
Nevertheless, most of the teachers today are math challenged, particularly because many of those under 40 had reform math inflicted on them and have to teach reform math based curricula.
Thirty years ago I took a course on teaching math in the elementary school, and there were teachers in that class who had trouble doing 6th grade math. Whether they ended up graduating the program & becoming teachers I am not sure, but I've seen some really "math-challenged" elementary teachers.
While I recognize that others may disagree, I don’t think having elaborate labs for students in high school or junior high school (middle schools in some districts) is desireable.
I don't know that it's absolutely necessary, and indeed I've taught in one school with very little in the way of lab equipment, but I think it is desireable for students to learn to manipulate the equipment and to actually see cell division, or find that yes, the reaction occurs just like on the movie....(there are some labs that aren't worth the time it takes to do them, however.)
According to my family, I am an expert in nagging.
Frankly, I’m jealous. That’s a skill I’ve never learned. Squeeky wheel and all that. I tried to take lessons in nagging; it just didn’t take.
A customer who wishes to reduce the cash items in their pocket may want $20.50 back; but I’ve seen some customers request change which suggests they have other purposes for the precise amount of change they required. Who knows what their reasons are; I don’t worry about it.
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