Posted on 07/06/2008 1:08:11 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
i did not say what you said i said.
Hundreds of American airman owe their lives to the Chetniks, who saved them from the Fascists, including the Croatian Ustashe.
Keep trying to peddle your Philby-inspired fictions, it’s the truth that gives you problems.
Choke on it.
I don’t believe that I quoted anything posted by you.
Can anyone name any anti-Italian or anti-German actions undertaken by the Serbian Chetniks of Dalmatia, Lika, Hercegovina, or Western Bosnia?
Can anyone tell us who rescued the Serbian Chetniks of the Dinara Division from annihilation by Tito's Partisans by evacuating them to safe territory?
Can anyone here tell us when open collaboration began between Serbian Chetniks and the Germans?
Can anyone tell us on which side the Serbian Chetniks appeared during the Battles of Neretva (Operation Weiss) and Sutjeska (Operation Schwartz)? (Axis side or anti-Axis side).
It’s just soooo funny that you’ve reached out to the most notorious Serb-hater on the forum! How else could you find support, Tropo! LOL!
Looks like your dodging the question. Again, your ignorance is obvious as the light of day. No wonder you keep diverting the thread off-topic.
I don’t need any support. I have the facts. Can you answer the question posed to you?
Tudjman, at the first convention of the Croatian Democratic Union (Hrvatska Demokratska Zajednica: HDZ), on February 26, 1990, said, in the presence of more than 100 Ustashi war criminals who had escaped the law courts and fled to international havens after World War II: “The Independent State of Croatia [ie: the World War II Croatian Ustashe Nazi state] was not only a mere Quisling creation, but also an expression of the historical aspirations of the Croatian people for an independent state of their own and recognition of international factors–the Government of Hitler’s Germany in this case.”
Sorry, but the topic isn’t Croatia. It’s Serbia.
You are sick and stupid
Miladin Kovacevic towered over Brian Stenhouser it was not a fair fight. How would you feel if your son was beaten to a coma or death by a man who is much bigger than him?
Obviously my comments went over your head. The point I'm making (and with the facts being on my side) is that the Serbian Chetniks more often than not (and in many cases, always) sided with the Axis rather than against them. Sutjeska, Kozara, and Neretva are but a few examples. Nor did I (or do I) cheer on the deaths of innocents nor am I "praising" any victories in the two aforementioned battles (I'm just stating facts).
Seriously mow.
I'm not defending Kovacevic. Not at all. But we are talking about bar fight, and until it all cleare itself up, we need to hear all sides.
BTW,
Brian was hearsing a girl, that is something inexcusable.
Women should be protected from predators like Brian. And yes. Kovacevic should not bess Brian up like that. Two or three bitchslaps would do.
That sounds better than what you wrote before.
nor am I "praising" any victories in the two aforementioned battles (I'm just stating facts).
I would always praise victory against fascists, no matter if you were Croat or Serbian (as antifascists from my familly were).
Did you know that Folksdeutschers used to dress as chetniks and make many atrocities agains civilians especially in the beginning of war? Dressing up like chetniks, speaking many different dialekts in different parts of Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia were mixed population lived, making fier and unrest among people. They used to do it in other parts of Europe too.
In my oppinion the most bloody, confusing, scary WW2 was held in ex-ex-Yugoslavia. It was a tripple war:
1. against foreign envaders - Germans in first place (attacked Serbia, Montenegro), Bulgarians (attacked Serbia), Hungarians (Serbia), Italians (Croatian coast - Istria and Dalmatia, Montenegro, southern Serbia - province of Kosovo), Albanians (partly Montenegro, Serbia - province of Kosovo),
2. civil war between different ethnic groups in Yugoslavia creating initial genocidal formations to eliminate alianized nations with help of mostley SS german troups that created SS troups of locals to serve local goals - final solution (mostley against Serbs: in Croatia by ustashas, in Bosnia by SS Handzar, in Kosovo by SS Skenderbeg) and as response contra-represalities agains enemies - troops and somewere civilians, and some chetnik fractions,
3. civil war among Serbs between royalist and partizans political rivals.
Nothning is black and white D.
In Serbia chetniks started first fights against Germans, then partizans. Chetniks were not formed with help of german or italian invaders to help them and in return to receive “ethnicaly pured” territories, but way long before that (in the beginning of 20. cent.) and massivley in the beginning of Balkan wars in First Balkan war - 1912. against turkish aggressiors (Serbia, Greece, Montenegro and Bulgaria) to liberate, among other occupied territories, province of Kosovo and Old Serbia - Vardarska, what is now known as FYR Macedonia (Tito`s “clever” solution for name to erase Serbs and create another nation) and in Second Balkan war - 1913. agains Bulgarians who turn back on their ally Serbia with help “soon to die” Black-Yellow Empire (Austro-hungarian).
It`s very important to say that in the first year of war most antifascistic action were held by both partizans and chetniks - in 1941. - it was same - to fight with chetniks or with partizans against nazis, so one son would go with chetniks and other with partizans.
On croatian side, there were domobrani not at all bad as ustashas, some of them moving to partizan lines later or helping them or civilians. Also there were chetniks who stood antifascists to the end and some of them even helped partizans and their families during the war (I know the fate of one of them who saved many civilian lifes and after the war he was shot just because Tito needed more enemies).
And for partizans, while in big centres some of their commanders (communists) waited instructions to start war, in rest of Yugoslavia they were joining force for ALL the antifascists who had to protect families against ALL kinds of foreign invaders or local fascists. Most of them not communists and even many anti-communists, but antifascists without choice. Again all those partizan masses were cunningly used for power switch in 1944/45.
My grandfather almost got to Tito`s camp Goli Otok for beating up one commie general after the war, but he was war invalid so luckily he survived "chistka". From books, like the one and others I have, about women from II Dalmatia brigade, you can learn a lot about war from various peoples fates. So for example, I read that one vounded croatian woman partizan from Split was captured by chetniks, healed and then just got released.
Nothing is black and white, exept pure evil as fascists or rasists to the core and a child.
That's what I've been saying on this forum for years on the Balkans threads. The characterization on this forum has quite often been that Serbs are innocent victims while Croatians are genocidal Nazi maniacs.
In Serbia chetniks started first fights against Germans, then partizans.
This is true except that one must differentiate between the Chetniks of Ravna Gora and the legal Chetniks under WW1 hero Kosta Pecananc. The latter group (larger at the time) began collaboration in Nedic's Serbia from the summer of 1941, seeing the Germans as a lesser evil than the Partisans. The Ravna Gora Chetniks under Mihailovic were the first to resist the Germans in Nedic's Serbia mainly because they were much, much more numerous than Tito's Partisans at the time. Of course, this fell apart at Uzice and Cacak that autumn.
Chetniks were not formed with help of german or italian invaders to help them and in return to receive “ethnicaly pured” territories, but way long before that (in the beginning of 20. cent.) and massivley in the beginning of Balkan wars in First Balkan war - 1912 against turkish aggressiors (Serbia, Greece, Montenegro and Bulgaria) to liberate, among other occupied territories, province of Kosovo and Old Serbia - Vardarska, what is now known as FYR Macedonia (Tito`s “clever” solution for name to erase Serbs and create another nation) and in Second Balkan war - 1913. agains Bulgarians who turn back on their ally Serbia with help “soon to die” Black-Yellow Empire (Austro-hungarian).
This is correct.
It`s very important to say that in the first year of war most antifascistic action were held by both partizans and chetniks - in 1941. - it was same - to fight with chetniks or with partizans against nazis, so one son would go with chetniks and other with partizans.
This is also correct, and not just in Nedic's Serbia, but also in Bosnia and in Dalmatia and Lika where the lines were not yet solid between Partizan and Chetnik.
And for partizans, while in big centres some of their commanders (communists) waited instructions to start war, in rest of Yugoslavia they were joining force for ALL the antifascists who had to protect families against ALL kinds of foreign invaders or local fascists. Most of them not communists and even many anti-communists, but antifascists without choice. Again all those partizan masses were cunningly used for power switch in 1944/45.
One must not forget that Tito granted a massive amnesty to Serbian Chetniks who would desert and join the Partisans in 1943 and 1944.
My grandfather almost got to Tito`s camp Goli Otok for beating up one commie general after the war, but he was war invalid so luckily he survived "chistka". From books, like the one and others I have, about women from II Dalmatia brigade, you can learn a lot about war from various peoples fates. So for example, I read that one vounded croatian woman partizan from Split was captured by chetniks, healed and then just got released. Nothing is black and white, exept pure evil as fascists or rasists to the core and a child.
I could say the same for communists.
Latest from B92:
Kovačević parents claim son is innocent 7 July 2008 | 18:12 | Source: Beta BELGRADE -- The father of Serbian student Miladin Kovačević says that his son is innocent of the charges he is wanted for by the U.S.
Petar Kovačević, along with wife Branka and Miladin's lawyer, spoke in a news conference in Belgrade today.
He said that his son tried to separate students who were fighting in a bar in New York state and did not “hit or kick Bryan Steinhauer,“ who was seriously injured.
Miladin was arrested over the assault and released on bail before he fled the U.S. and returned to Serbia.
Kovačević’s parents today claimed that reports filed by local police at the scene prove the innocence of their son and that the help which the Serbian Consulate-General in New York provided for their son was “in accordance with the law.“
The Kovačevićs said that they have been threatened and pressured and that they are afraid for their son and daughter’s lives.
Branka Kovačević, who was in America at the time of the incident, added that no one informed her officially as a parent that her son had been taken into prison for participating in a bar fight, but that they were notified of it through friends.
She said that her son, who is a student at New York state’s Binghamton University, experienced “serious torture“ while in prison, after being thrown in with “the worst criminals“, and received death threats.
Branka also told reporters that Miladin was also not allowed to talk to a lawyer, and decided to leave the U.S. after receiving threatening phone calls, adding that he is currently “in his place of residence”.
“We realized that we had to go. It was better to die on the way or disappear together than to disappear over there,” she said.
According to her, Steinhauer has since left the hospital with his condition improving.
Kovačević’s parents claim that the reporting in the American media about their son and the fight at the student bar “is not based on the real events“ and that Steinhauer “started the conflict by attacking the girlfriend of one of Miladin’s friends“.
"Our son interfered to separate those who took part in the fight," Petar Kovačević said, adding that Steinhauer, who was drunk at the time, attacked Miladin, who in turn "pushed him away".
According to him, Miladin is depressed over everything that has happened.
The family attorney, Veselin Cerović, who spoke in the same news conference, said that "any possibility of Miladins's extradition has been ruled out", since there is no legal ground for this.
Cerović said that a U.S. embassy official in Belgrade he spoke to could not tell him what the charges against his client are.
He added that there is no description of the act that Kovačević is blamed for, that witness testimonies are contradictory, while "the whole case is gaining huge proportions because of political statements".
What is missing (something always does in B92) up there is that his father said on press conf. that M.Kovacevic, when he tried to leave the bar with friends, was attacked from the back on his head and then, and that in the police file stands that B.S. was drunk and also on drugs.
I think he should be prosecuted in Serbia with cooperation of american authorities.
You should not exclude also some ustashas and italian fascists from the same list - in similar book about partizan fighters from II Dalmatian brigade there`s list of people: name, nationality, home-location, year of joining, death location (if so year of death) - and what could the reader see: while going up north through the coast of Adriatic, after fights in Bosnia and western Serbia, from Montenegro to Istria and Trieste, in almost all big coastal towns many people were "joining" partizans in 1944., all of them croatian. What were those people doing from 1941. to 1944.? Nitting socks? Most of dalmatian in-land populated by Serbs joined 1941. and many from Istria or Dalmatia, Serbs or Croats, real antifascists joined 1941., latest 1942. I know of one particular small island near Zadar, who`s INTIRE population organized uprising against Italians and later joined parizans.
Anyway there were chetnik formation that fought against nazis all the war, and the article about saved pilots is telling that. This was something that one could not read about in Tito`s Yugoslavia after war time, because they didn`t match into general picture.
Often it was the case of forced mobilization by the Partisans. However, the numer of Ustashi switching sides was quite low. Domobrans had a much higher number of switching.
What were those people doing from 1941. to 1944.? Nitting socks?
The most populous parts of Dalmatia were annexed by Italy...so the men in these areas couldn't have been Ustashi nor Domobrans.
Most of dalmatian in-land populated by Serbs joined 1941. and many from Istria or Dalmatia, Serbs or Croats, real antifascists joined 1941., latest 1942. I know of one particular small island near Zadar, who`s INTIRE population organized uprising against Italians and later joined parizans.
The Serbs of Dalmatia were overwhelmingly pro-Chetnik in the interior, fighting under Momcilo Djujic, whom the Nazis saved from the Partisans. As the Chetniks' fortune waned, Serbs from Dalmatia began to flood into the Partisan ranks either through desertion or forced mobilization.
The most populous parts of Dalmatia were annexed by Italy...so the men in these areas couldn't have been Ustashi nor Domobrans.
Couldn`t have? It`s like that Italians would stopped them for being that. They were coleagues. Most of atrocities in Dalmatia were done by ustashas not italian fascists. Italians were in rule, but they cooperated with ustashas and domobrani on all the territory of Dalmatia (which was logical, because Croatians were locals).
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