Posted on 06/07/2008 4:39:31 PM PDT by JRochelle
Oh my gosh! What terrible news!
You're joking right?
Just in case you're not, nobody from FLDS is going to be found guilty. They're all innoculated against guilt by CPS unconstitutional actions.
CPS is another matter.
When this is all over, the FLDS is going to own everything for a 10 mile radius, including the roads, and CPS is NEVER ever going to be able to surprise them again.
“It isn’t being stopped, precisely because the CPS and the Judge acted emotionally and broke the law.”
You mean because instead of waiting for any charges, trials, and by ignoring the words of the FLDS leader that they would stop underage marriages, you are predicting that it will not stop, without any kind of factual evidence?
No.
How superior of you. I bow at the feet of the PRO FLDS GODS who warn others about their mistakes.
I explained earlier that I am not anti-FLDS, and if you go through my comments over the past 2 1/2 months, you can see for yourself.
However, you continue to let emotion rule over your logic, and over documented fact.
Maybe you think it’s a game. I don’t. I think it is a matter of law.
I would agree that the media, the ‘other’ religions that have taken an affront to the invalid comparisons, and those who take personal affront to the religious issue, are playing games.
So, you declare the whole state to be full of stupid, incompetent, emotional, and irrational people (other than the actual FLDS members at the YFZ Ranch).
Judge, jury, and executioner, once again?
LOL I guess that means that you don't have any : )
If we want the law followed, then why accept that the law won’t be followed?
Because past history indicates that the law won't be followed. Who was charged for Waco? Ruby Ridge? Scotts? The government admitted guilt and paid money but no one was even charged with anything.
The logical, fact based, thinking is that you can’t arrest someone to prevent him from committing a crime.
Well, you are wrong about that.
LOL You don't even know how wrong you are. Do you know what A Priori even means? I think this is the heart of our misunderstanding. You don't believe in upholding the Law and the Constitution.
My logic is telling me that laws were written to put the safety of the children first, and that we created the CPS to intervene and remove children, if necessary, BEFORE they determine that there is in reality, a problem. All CPS has to have is complaints, and the results of their ‘investigation’ to make that determination. Sorry if you don’t agree with the law.
Obviously the CPS didn't obey the Law or they wouldn't have had to return the women and children that they kidnapped.
IIRC, the crimes allegedly committed didn’t involve child abuse, so the rest of your questions are moot.
Waco did. Why did you bring the raids up then?
I was trying to point out that because they didn’t involve the FLDS or Mormons, no one seems to give a darn about what happened at these other two locations. Legally or illegally.
Waco didn't involve the FLDS or Mormons and we were certainly concerned about them. Your point has no validity at all.
This is the downfall of your conversations. You paint your ‘side’ as completely logical, and the other ‘side’ as totally emotional and mindless.
The truth is that both sides contain about the same amount of both.
All I can do is refer to your failure to present any evidence what so ever to support your side. Our side so far has all of the evidence and court rulings to support our case.
“Just in case you’re not, nobody from FLDS is going to be found guilty. They’re all innoculated against guilt by CPS unconstitutional actions.”
Noted. We will have to wait to see for sure.
Well, I guess we’ll have to build a wall on all the borders to Texas.
But, I prefer to wait and see what really happens.
You are welcome to make all the pessimistic conclusions you wish.
“Our side so far has all of the evidence and court rulings to support our case. “
Your side has only the court rulings, and hasn’t even seen the evidence yet.
If it turns out there is absolutely no evidence that any crimes were committed, don’t worry, I will heartily join your side.
But, you can’t declare that something doesn’t exist, simply because you aren’t privy to it, at this point.
“Because past history indicates that the law won’t be followed. “
Which is exactly the kind of ‘emotional’ logic that you criticized others for doing in saying that the FLDS had as CURRENT doctrines, the practice of child-brides, polygamy, and child-labor.
If they were doing it before, that should be proof, according to your statement, that they are doing it now, and going to keep doing it.
You call it pessimism, I don’t
Given our present legal climate, and the fact that the authorities so overstepped the Constitutional limits placed on them, it is with some satisfaction that I have made those predictions. A lot of those government folks ought to be facing some serious prison time. They aren’t.
The losers here are the taxpayers, and without a doubt, quite a number of FLDS members. The blame for their fate is to be laid at the feet of CPS, who should have used even a smidgen of common sense.
“I think this is the heart of our misunderstanding.”
The heart of our misunderstanding is that you keep lumping arrests of alleged criminals with the CPS removing the children.
When someone points out an issue about the children, you want to jump back to the alleged perps. When they point out an issue about the perps, you want to go back to talking about the children.
They are two separate issues.
Even if the CPS were to remove children from a home, should the parents be found not guilty of any crimes, that doesn’t make the original removal illegal.
Yes, that and convictions.
How superior of you. I bow at the feet of the PRO FLDS GODS who warn others about their mistakes. I explained earlier that I am not anti-FLDS, and if you go through my comments over the past 2 1/2 months, you can see for yourself.
Thank you and your comments here have been anti FLDS. This is a mild example: "The ONLY THING this case had to do with religion is the lies that Warren Jeffs told his flock, to ensure their strict loyalty while he committed the crimes.
I did notice that the Upper echelon of the LOYAL INNER CIRCLE has flown the coop, leaving the misled and innocent to take the rap."
So, you declare the whole state to be full of stupid, incompetent, emotional, and irrational people (other than the actual FLDS members at the YFZ Ranch).
When I say State I am referring to the State Agencies that botched the FLDS raid. And yes it appears that the FLDS have been playing the State (Governor included) like a fiddle.
There isn't any evidence or charges now. Why don't you change sides now and save yourself a lot of grief.
If they were doing it before, that should be proof, according to your statement, that they are doing it now, and going to keep doing it.
Didn’t one of the leaders give his word that they would no longer allow spiritual marriages of underage females? You have to take him at his word after all they’ve never lied about anything in the past, have they?
“and the fact that the authorities so overstepped the Constitutional limits placed on them”
IIRC, the only limit was that the Judge’s ruling on the statutes of the state of Texas as regards CPS and removal of children, was overturned by the Appellate and TXSC.
It is why we have an appellate and Supreme Court.
It has never involved placing Judges in jail before, so why should it now?
The law was followed, and it took some court hearings to make sure that was happening.
You are accusing the Judge and CPS of breaking the ‘law’, when what they really did is conform to decisions of the law.
“There isn’t any evidence or charges now. Why don’t you change sides now and save yourself a lot of grief.”
Why don’t you state that there is no evidence, never was, and the whole thing is a lie, and that the State of Texas just wanted to throw away $7 million for nothing?
“And yes it appears that the FLDS have been playing the State (Governor included) like a fiddle. “
There was some discussion of this possibility way earlier on the threads.
I think it is a valid point to be considered.
If true, it means that the FLDS planned to commit crimes in Texas, and planned to get away with it.
All the more reason the state of Texas should pursue this case until the end. Even if they ‘lose’, it won’t be because they didn’t try.
I would be more ashamed if they got all this evidence, over the years, and simply decided to not do anything, because they were afraid they might ‘lose’.
In that case, they would be forgoing the ‘law’ to keep their pockets lined.
I understand you think the CPS and Judge did everything ‘wrong’, and that may lead to any ‘crimes’ going unpunished.
But, it makes me ask, what would you do, if you were in the same situation?
Assume that the FLDS is as smart as you think, and that if you tried to serve search or arrest warrants, they would simply truck the alleged criminals and victims to other states, or outside the U.S.
“Didn’t one of the leaders give his word that they would no longer allow spiritual marriages of underage females?”
I’m being a little sarcastic, but you know what I mean. He stated the ‘word’ came from Joseph Smith.
I would have to guess here, but I think what he meant is that they were reverting to Joseph Smith’s rules, rather than Warren Jeff’s twisting of them.
But, I am no expert on Joseph Smith’s original rules.
Yes
i didn’t say anything outrageous.. not as outrageous as you constantly denying facts... you acted like you didn’t know what i was talking about..
when a governor tells a bunch of people who he doesn’t like to get out of the state, it’s exactly like the bad old days of racism.
YOU:”The logical, fact based, thinking is that you can’t arrest someone to prevent him from committing a crime.”
Me:Well, you are wrong about that.
You: LOL You don’t even know how wrong you are.
Am I?
There are a lot of people in jail who were planning criminal acts, and got put in jail for doing so.
For example: Woman wants her husband dead, and meets with a hired killer to pay him to do it. Turns out he is a undercover cop, and they bust her and put her in jail for conspiracy to commit murder.
She didn’t commit the actual crime, and wouldn’t. She was going to pay someone else to commit the crime. Yet, she goes to jail.
There have been no arrests. What are you talking about?
Even if the CPS were to remove children from a home, should the parents be found not guilty of any crimes, that doesn’t make the original removal illegal.
If the parents aren't found guilty of crimes the children should be returned. The Children should not be removed unless a parent has been charged with a crime. Is that so hard to understand?
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