Posted on 04/15/2008 8:34:19 PM PDT by blam
ROTFLOL. Seems like a logical question.
Consistent, if nothing else.
lolololol...
And perhaps you should have pinged AmericaUnited to it because he sees things differently.
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." -- Psalm 139:7-16"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
I said "the Shepherd protects His flock perfectly."
You don't think the Shepherd protects His flock perfectly?
That's a new one on me. No wonder you're so worried.
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." -- Romans 8:28
"All things."
The point being debated was whether it was God's perfect will for anyone to be sick. You said it was "ridulous" that God's perfect will was for us to be healthy. Do understand the difference between God's perfect will and what He allows yes? If not, I can see why you are stumbling over this one.
But they ARE discussing his sick notions of predestination.
Predestination simply states that God is in control and that nothing is outside His perfect will and sovereign purpose.
At the moment of creation, God ordained all that was to be, or don't you believe God "declared the end from the beginning?" (Isaiah 46:10)
Is God in the dark as to the future? Do men "surprise" God by their actions? Does God not know who are His from their birth? Do men save themselves, or is salvation a gift from God, ordained by God from all eternity by the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
When God ordained the Lamb to be slain from the foundation of the world, did He not know for whom He died? Did He not know the names of those whose lives would be redeemed by His blood?
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Ephesians 1:4-6"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
A correct understanding of God's predestination is a great comfort to all who have received God's grace in order to believe in His name as Lord and Savior.
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -- John 1:12-13"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
We are not born again by our human will, but by the will of God.
Predestination was articulated by "church fathers" long before John Calvin.
For further evidence, here's Calvin's understanding of Augustine and free will...
When we attribute foreknowledge to God, we mean that all things have ever been, and perpetually remain, before His eyes, so that to His knowledge nothing is future or past, but all things are present: and present in such a manner that He does not merely conceive of them from ideas formed in His mind, as things remembered by us appear present to our minds, but really beholds and sees them as if actually placed before Him. And this foreknowledge extends to the whole world and to all the creatures. Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He hath determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others...When the will of a natural man is said to be subject to the power of the devil, so as to be directed by it, the meaning is, not that it resists and is compelled to a reluctant submission, as masters compel slaves to an unwilling performance of their commands; but that, being fascinated by the fallacies of Satan, it necessarily submits itself to all his directions. For those whom the Lord does not favor with the government of His Spirit, He abandons in righteous judgment to the influence of Satan...
Predestination is not an easy subject. Our natural tendency is to rebuke the very idea that we are constrained by anything other than our own self-interest. But that is not who men are. Some men have been bought with a great price, and thus they belong to Jesus Christ; and some men have been left to their own desires which is exactly where they want to be.
This has always been a hard lesson to hear...
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But there are some of you that believe not.
For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." -- John 6:63-66
I did not say it was. I referred to "his sick notions of predestination," and sick they are.
Traditions of Men
Cauvin created a vindictive, cruel god in his own dark image.
Did the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world do so in order to save Petronski personally and by name?
Or is it all just a surprise to Him?
Try reading the Institutes sometime and learn for yourself. Calvin was meticulous. As a lawyer, he knew the necessity of uncompromised evidence.
Even you believe I must at least have faith in Him to be saved.
Or is it all just a surprise to Him?
Don't conflate foreknowledge of my salvation or damnation with foreordaining of it.
It's called free will.
You said God wants everyone to be in perfect health, and that is not true, obviously.
If God wanted all men to be in perfect health, then all men would be in perfect health.
He's God. He gets what He wants. It goes with the job description.
That is WHY his heresies are Traditions of Men...they are not found in scripture.
And when does God's foreknowledge begin?
From before the foundation of the world God knows to whom He will give faith in Christ and to whom He will not give faith in Christ.
And yet He creates them all anyway -- those He knows will be acquitted of their sins and those He knows will be condemned for their sins.
So there's no discernible difference between God's foreknowledge and God's ordination of all things.
God's foreknowledge is merely His own awareness of what He has created in the first place.
Read Augustine. The RCC used to believe in predestination. Sadly, like the rest of the modern church, they've abandoned the truth for a lie -- that men save themselves by their own good choice to believe.
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11
Isn't Paul clear enough for you here?
Maybe that's because in the RCC members tend to swallow whatever they're told without introspection.
For Protestants, we understand God's word tells us we are to test the spirits and rightly divide the truth so that we can give anyone a reason for the hope that is within us.
Why? Because you cannot discern it? Because you are in the thrall of Cauvin, who did his best to obliterate it?
Isn't Paul clear enough for you here?
One quote from Paul does not the entirety of Scripture make.
He's God. He gets what He wants. It goes with the job description.
These statements show just a gross ignorance on the subject are just so easily refuted! How about this: God wants men not to sin, BUT THEY DO. So much for what you said...
Do you ever really try to match reality with "your pet theologies"? Try it sometime, it will save you great amount of embarrassment.
You expect me to prove a negative. Impossible. Cauvin attempted to prove his new gospel from God's word, but did not succeed. It is not my place to prove anything.
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