The "Isms" That Bedevil Bush (Pat Buchanan Alert)

“You should ask the typical resident of Korea or Manchuria if they saw the situation similar to how you just described them.”

is that what we did with weak latin american governments as we enacted the monroe doctrine and went around propping up cronies there??

you need to consider the mindset and the context, every where, at the time

the period was a century ago and many attitudes around the world were not the dominant attitudes of today

as for korea - where i have experience and friends - i think they blame their weak and disputatious leaders at the time equally with the japanese

additionally, in spite of their over bearing presence, the then modern japanese provided benefits and advantages, in education and economically, to a whole generation in Korea - hated for their rule, but envied and appreciated in other ways at the same time

it is true that, with independence and the ensuing politics, the hatred and the anger over abuses dominated over any residual envy or appreciation and those who clinged most to the latter two became socially, and eventually politically less advantageous

one of my best friend’s father in Korea was from that generation and to him the memories of the japanese remained complexly conflicted - he had advanced considerably during that era, from his youth, yet harbored the same national resentment as everyone else - he had stories of happy memories and achievement in the japanese ruled society side by side with stories of shame and anger

unfortunately, even before that era, koreans and japanese were equally xenophobic and considered each other as inferior (some still do)

If you want to apologize to the former Empire of Japan, go ahead. I find that absolutely offensive.

All of this apologia for the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese is ridiculous and can be seen for what it is.

The America First movement is Old School Republican party politics and it is wrong.

Lindberg and others were wrong.

There was no justification adequate to the killing of 12 million human beings by the Japanese empire on the continent of Asia. The brutality of the regime was apparent in the mistreatment of American military personnel during World War II. The brutality exceeded that of the Germans in regard to dealing with combatants.

Isolationism does kill. It is what lead to the September 11 attacks. The Ron Paulesque view of the world that despots left alone will leave us alone has been proven wrong over and over again.

Despite these proofs, stubborn individuals reposition the aggression of Pearl Harbor as necessary outcomes rooted in the aggression of America.

this is why the radical Left and the radical right are the same. The chickens coming home to roost is the root argument of both sides.

America always has it coming. If we leave the world alone and just protect our borders, all will be well.

The World Trade Center victims were “little eichmanns” little interventionists of globalism interfering with the lovely benign cultures of the world not looking to hurt anyone.

This loving and adoring cultures that you defend are waiting to have you as their loyal subjects.

The America you imagine does not exist and has not since at least the 19th century when we took on wave upon wave of immigrants to the nation.

Pat Buchannan is terribly foolish and not far short of the absurd ravings of Ron Paul.

I don’t think you are in a position to care about Iranians— which is quite apparent in failing to note that the “government of Iran” wants us all dead. Iranians like so many other people would like to be free of their despots.

But their skin tone is not the right color so their interests are not germane to this discussion.

The attacks on the WTC could have killed 50,000 but for the heroism of true Americans.

The war on terror has taken this fight to sanctuaries of terrorism where plotting with weapons of mass destruction was continuing. The success of the WOT may give you the luxury of arguing that illegal immigrants have killed more than 911 but that only demonstrates the effectiveness of American efforts.

It is okay to argue for immigration law enforcement but it is not okay to demagogue the argument in a way to undermine the larger effort of fighting the enemy. That has clearly happened with elements of the illegal immigration crowd. Refusing to acknowledge missions accomplished is part of the tacit agreement with the radical Left to demean American military missions.

“If you want to apologize to the former Empire of Japan, go ahead. I find that absolutely offensive.”

i’m not apologizing at all for anything the military rulers of japan did - and neither was buchanan

what, and i, could see was the history of what led the japanese, the people, to accept the military clique and later their brutality

“All of this apologia for the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese is ridiculous and can be seen for what it is.”

it is no apologia for the japanese brutality, in acknowledging the history and context that led to the development of their views

it is no apologia for the nazis, at all, in acknowledging that the german people were led to their eventual support of hitler out of conditions, brutal conditions on them, that the french and british imposed in the wwi treaty of versailles - people delivering wheelbarrows full of worthless money to buy the family’s daily bread

“There was no justification adequate to the killing of 12 million human beings by the Japanese empire on the continent of Asia. The brutality of the regime was apparent in the mistreatment of American military personnel during World War II. The brutality exceeded that of the Germans in regard to dealing with combatants.”

no one defended it, at all

we simply pointed to the history of events that led to it, that led the japanese people to accept it, and, in a completely asian and japanese perspective, how those events were viewed, by many asians at the time, in their earliest developments

could, under the same motivations, the japanese have taken a different course - yes; that’s for sure, but it is not what - the simple matter, that people like buchanan recognized - the motivation of japan - the dismantling of european imperial domination of asia in general and a prostrate china as well

those who focus only on the japanese brutality - the japanese response, and little else - simply stand as apologists for the imperial european interests who sought to contain japan to preserve the benefit of their conquered asian interests for themselves

the u.s. was not much help in that contest on mainland asia; was often silent when it should have opposed its “friends” in the earliest days of it (as we did with britain and france in the suez crisis) and in the end simply became reactionary to the increasingly desperate moves by japan to blunt european imperial dominance in it’s back yard

japan would likely not have become so hardened in it’s ambitions if we had become it’s ally, against the european empires - recognizing the resemblance to our own monroe doctrine in the basic, early, japanese motivations

that is not an apology for the brutality of the process that the military clique eventually produced

it just recognizes the history of how the japanese population was roused to accept it, from how things were viewed from the standpoint of asian interests at the time

“Isolationism does kill. It is what lead to the September 11 attacks.”

‘isolationism’ had nothing to do with 911

there had been no area where we had been more politically, economically and militarily engaged than the middle east over the prior forty years

911 was first a result of warped, and blind diplomatic world views of the middle east since the end of world war ii, where the myths the arab world and its leaders believe about themselves were accepted as informed, unquestioned truth in much of the west - helping to support a phony ‘stability’ that was ‘stable’ only in terms of supporting many of the worst rulers and governments in the world

911 was secondly an intelligence failure that had its origins in the 1970s as the u.s. intelligence community gradually, and eventually near totally, outsourced any human intelligence to others, and became nothing more than ‘analysts’ of ‘intelligence’ delivered up by others

911 was thirdly a natural result of the enforced disconnect and walls between our foreign and domestic ‘intelligence’

none of those failures had anything to do with isolationism

“Despite these proofs, stubborn individuals reposition the aggression of Pearl Harbor as necessary outcomes rooted in the aggression of America.”

sorry, i have no need to defend a position i did not take

Iranians like so many other people would like to be free of their despots.

People get the government they deserve. It's not our job to police the world. We have enough trouble policing our own borders.

But their skin tone is not the right color so their interests are not germane to this discussion.

Sorry you feel that way, I'm pretty sure that racism is frowned upon at FreeRepublic, you might want to sell your stuff at another site more amenable to your point of view.

The war on terror has taken this fight to sanctuaries of terrorism where plotting with weapons of mass destruction was continuing.

Really? Last I heard they never found any WMDs. Where did they finally show up?

The success of the WOT may give you the luxury of arguing that illegal immigrants have killed more than 911 but that only demonstrates the effectiveness of American efforts.

If telling the truth about illegals killing more Americans is your idea of a luxury purchased by GWB and his heroic war then you deserve this government. I do not, however as GWB's heroic war just shows how misplaced his and your priorities are. If the objective is saving American lives the WOT is in fact a failure.

it is not okay to demagogue the argument in a way to undermine the larger effort of fighting the enemy. That has clearly happened with elements of the illegal immigration crowd. Refusing to acknowledge missions accomplished is part of the tacit agreement with the radical Left to demean American military missions.

It is you and your ilk who refuse to acknowledge the greater and more imminent evil we face as a nation. Your tacit agreement with the left is to race-bait whenever a patriotic American points out that imminent evil. An evil you are willing to embrace with your leftist brethren in an attempt to malign traditional American culture.

“And it was FDR who, by cutting off Japan’s oil in July 1941, rebuffing Prince Konoye’s offer to meet him in the Pacific or Alaska and issuing a virtual ultimatum on Nov. 26, 1941—to get out of China—that propelled Japan to its fatal decision to attack Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7.”

this historical anecdote provides context for our own failures that helped prop-up japanese motives

when had we ever issued an ultimatum to the europeans to get out of china, operating under their ‘concessions’ militarily demanded of china’s final weak leaders - never

when had we ever issued an ultimatum to the europeans - french, dutch and brits - to dismantle the imperial hostage colonies they had created across southeast asia - never

we spoke with a forked tongue

we did not, militarily or diplomatically, oppose imperial dictators in asia - just japanese ones

that, had become clear to asians, japanese as well, since before ww1

and how could we

we had spent twelve years - after 1898 - in our first guerilla war, in the philippines, destroying the philippine independence movement that had already secured defeat of the spanish rulers on land before our navy encountered the spanish fleet in manila bay

our own experience in the philippines provided us no leverage for opposing europe’s imperial ambitions in asia

which left japan recognizing that as far as asians were concerned, strategically it was alone because most of the rest of asia was either weak or not in asian hands

is that an apology for what they did, from that motivation - no, not at all; only an understanding of the asian context of the roots of the motovation, not the process japan finally employed in response to it

if you cannot understand the role of european imperial designs in asia, in the context of japanese history and the influence of those designs on that history, then i can guess you are just an ‘apologist’ for the european imperial designs in asia from the 1800s to 1945

Racism should be frowned upon by Free Republic.

And as your tag line suggests, it is a term of power.

It is worth wondering why you deliberately refuse to confront the evil that is the Iranian government but choose instead to straw man me with Iranian people— an argument explicit in my original argument.

“They never found any WMD.”

Here is more explicit evidence of your alliance with the Left. Textbook leftist propaganda that serves your distorted right wing views. They NEVER found ANY wmd. Let’s take it another step and talk about how people should not exaggerate like President Bush. But rest assured ZERO wmd were found. Regardless of how Duelfer immediately found no less than 35 such weapons and that further investiagation found more than 500, rest assured we NEVER found ANY wmd. That’s your story and your sticking to it. And look how effectively it demeans the mission accomplished in Iraq.

“The WOT is a failure.”

Excellent.

American culture welcomes immigration and as much as you might despise it— most all of America’s immigration from the 1800s on has been illegal.

“if you cannot understand the role of european imperial designs in asia, in the context of japanese history and the influence of those designs on that history, then i can guess you are just an ‘apologist’ for the european imperial designs in asia from the 1800s to 1945”

There is no escapse from the trap the two of you have laid for yourselves.

In fact, both the Nazi’s and the Japanese Empire can be wrong.

The intellectual project common to the radical right and left rewrites history to destroy the agency and action of evil statist powers in the world. The refashioning of history so that Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany ‘had no choice’ is part of the rhetorical sleight of hand necessary to the intrinsically anti American project.

Of course it is worthwhile to understand the PATHOLOGIES undergirding the Japanese and German fasicsms. It is however lunacy to embrace them as reasonable. Yes, Hitler and the Emperor did make the representations that you note as to how they were ‘cornered.’ But to seriously commend them as rational discourses that clarify the ill intent of America is a terrific intellectual error— to be kind.

Notice in all of these revisionisms, America has a range of free will actions which we apparently ignored but our statist enemies have no choice but to attack. It is an absurd reductionism and is perfectly consistent with Buchanan’s long line of flawed articles.

Give it up.

“The refashioning of history so that Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany ‘had no choice’ is part of the rhetorical sleight of hand necessary to the intrinsically anti American project.”

first, i have not ‘refashioned’ history, please cite a historical reference of events that i made that was not factually true

second, i have not once said they ‘had no choice’ and, more importantly that they did not have a range of choices - they did - what you want to ignore is that your position is that ‘we had no choice’, but the long history of the developments shows that we too, the further back in the developments you go, did have other choices

thirdly, i have not once excused either the nazis or the japanese for their processes, their ‘choices’ in response to the conditions that motivated them

what i have recognized is the history of the conditions from which the motivations (not the choices in response) arose

“Of course it is worthwhile to understand the PATHOLOGIES undergirding the Japanese and German fasicsms. It is however lunacy to embrace them as reasonable.”

no one has embraced the ‘pathologies’, the final ‘choices’, of the japanese or german rulers of wwii as reasonable - apparently you cannot distinguish between the history of motivations and actions eventually developed in response to them

“Yes, Hitler and the Emperor did make the representations that you note as to how they were ‘cornered.’ But to seriously commend them as rational discourses that clarify the ill intent of America is a terrific intellectual error— to be kind.”

i did not once refer to ‘hitler’ as being ‘cornered’ - he certainly wasn’t, nor did i ever ‘commend’ any course he took as if based on ‘rational discourses’ - his actions were never justified nor did i say they were; but, the motivations he was responding to - needed recourse to the horrendous ill conditions that the lopsided treaty of versaille had placed on the german people, provided the means for the german people to accept at first his rule and later to, pathologically, ignore his abuses - his course, his abuses were wrong choices in addressing a well understood motivation of the german people - to get from under the ruinous results of the treaty of versaille

even our president at the time, woodrow wilson, left the treaty negotiations out of disgust at what he saw would be their ruinous result - and he was right

there was no justification for what the nazis did, and i made none

what i made was the historical outline of the conditions and the motivations resulting from conditions that led the german people to accept the leaders that would take the choices they did - because those leaders offered something in response to the conditions that had developed

“Notice in all of these revisionisms, America has a range of free will actions which we apparently ignored but our statist enemies have no choice but to attack.”

no one once said “our ‘statist’ enemies have no choice but to attack”

why do you keep pressing arguments that no one makes

do you just like to put words in peoples mouths

I think the textual arguments speak for themselves so I will let anyone who reads these various arguments make their own judgment.

Buchanan’s essay is a re-fashioning of historical arguments in favor of the America First movement. The America first movement was wrong. I don’t know how to be more clear.

I would urge you to look on the internet for cartoons made by Dr. Seuss critiquing the America First movement. That movement was wrong then and it is still wrong today. Any effort to return to it would be disasterous not just for us but the entire world.

Anti war arguments are consistently flawed when made both by the right and the left.

George Orwell was right to say that pacifism is pro-fascism. That was in 1942. The fact that we have the liberty to contemplate the appropriateness of war does not mean that societies failing to debate the question are carte blanche correct in their actions. Nor does it mean that pro-war factions who can only provide incomplete justifications for their actions are clearly wrong. Consequently, it is fair to critique anti war positions as inciting and encouraging war and even genocide because they are not equally opposed to war on all fronts. They are opposed to war within communities that are willing to entertain their questions. That is decidedly flawed.

Racism should be frowned upon by Free Republic.

And as your tag line suggests, it is a term of power.

Whatever. Racism and race-baiting are provinces of the left (as my tagline shows) this is a conservative forum.

They NEVER found ANY wmd. Let’s take it another step and talk about how people should not exaggerate like President Bush. But rest assured ZERO wmd were found. Regardless of how Duelfer immediately found no less than 35 such weapons and that further investiagation found more than 500, rest assured we NEVER found ANY wmd. That’s your story and your sticking to it. And look how effectively it demeans the mission accomplished in Iraq.

So YOU say. Having perused Duelfer's CIA document, I find THIS:

Sorting Out Whether Iraq Had WMD Before Operation Iraqi Freedom ISG has not found evidence that Saddam Husayn possessed WMD stocks in 2003, but the available evidence from its investigation—including detainee interviews and document exploitation—leaves open the possibility that some weapons existed in Iraq although not of a militarily significant capability.

I find NOTHING that states Hussein had WMDs but hey don't let yourself get all hot and bothered by pesky little things like FACTS. Just keep on doing your Sig heil to 'W'. After all He Alone is responsible for our freedom. Never mind his ever increasing government.

American culture welcomes immigration and as much as you might despise it— most all of America’s immigration from the 1800s on has been illegal.

I love immigration:legally done. Despite your America hating position most immigration up until 1965 was of the legal variety. Maybe when someone you know comes to harm at the hands of an illegal will you be able to crawl out of your globalist ideology.

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