Posted on 12/28/2007 4:13:08 PM PST by jdm
Cool, no prob :-)
No prob, that's what I figured :)
I think you and I agree. Big city mayors are more like corporate CEO’s. They don’t face the same sorts of issues, constitutional issues, as a governor or the President
Not only that but it's simply a fact that for any accomplishment of a leader in these positions, you could engage in a fishing expedition to dig down and find other people involved, a history that its success depended on, etc. To suggest that this diminishes the accomplishment of the leader is spurious and selectively critical. If anything, this is more true of people in higher posts than Mayor. It's especially true of Presidents!
Ronald Reagan is (correctly, in my opinion) given a lot of credit for "winning the Cold War". I think Ronald Reagan had a tremendous amount to do with this, was crucially important, and had Jimmy Carter been re-elected things would have been much different.
That said, the U.S. triumph in the Cold War depended on a lot more than the single, unaided actions of Ronald Reagan. The containment doctrine begun by Truman and carried out under every single President (except perhaps Carter :) had a lot to do with it. The space race had a lot to do with it. Even our "lost cause"/demoralizing wars in Korea and Vietnam had a lot to do with it. One might even say the Beatles had a lot to do with it. There was a historical sequence of events that started well before Reagan came into office that contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Nevertheless, Reagan won the Cold War and to deny him this accomplishment because of these things is just wrong. Yes, one could very well write an article headlined "Did Reagan Really Win The Cold War?" and then point out various things that people other than Ronald Reagan did, but this would just be sour grapes, would prove nothing we don't already know, and the only reason to do it would be that someone felt like taking Ronald Reagan down a notch. It's actually a kind of straw man; nobody who says "Reagan won the Cold War" literally means that Reagan all by himself singlehandedly took down the USSR. They mean that as a leader, his leadership actions/decisions played a key role.
That's what's going on with this article & Giuliani, IMHO. Nobody who says "Giuliani cleaned up Times Square" means that he singlehandedly rolled up his sleeves, grabbed a broom, and cleaned it up. They mean simply that as a leader, his leadership actions/decisions played a key role. And nothing in this article actually debunks that. Instead the article focuses on two key points: (1) he didn't do it all by himself and (2) when Times Square got cleaned up, some other place in the city got dirtied up because some of the elements were displaced.
These are silly, straw-man criticisms. Best,
I don't speak for NYC Republican but I'll answer.
I don't think merely posting the article was pathetic (nor do I think that's what he was saying). Posting articles is what FR is about. But many of the responses to the article have been pathetic. If you don't believe me see me tangle with someone poo-pooing the difficulty of radiation cancer therapy above, just so they can keep their "dig" against Rudy.
I disagree that the article offers a "fairly balanced" view. The intent and raison d'etre of the article is clearly to try to reduce Giuliani's credit for cleaning up Times Square in peoples' minds. Articles headlined "Did [so-and-so] really [do such-and-such accomplishment]?" are almost automatically leading, subjective fishing expeditions with an agenda in mind.
Why does this article exist? Is this a news article? Did some news event occur right now in late 2007 which prompted "AP Staff" to investigate and write this article about whether Giuliani, as 1990s mayor of New York, "really" cleaned up Times Square?
No.
They (someone or some editor at AP) wanted to write a Rudy-takedown piece and so they did. This is not news, it is not balanced, and it is not even very informative, because the entire premise is based on a straw man. When Rudy takes credit, or people give him credit, for cleaning up Times Square, nobody means that he singlehandedly did so and that no other human had anything else to do with it.
If the criticism above is valid, it's valid for every accomplishment of every single leader in any institution. If Rudy didn't "really" clean up Times Square then no leader has ever "really" accomplished anything. That is where the standard they're applying logically leads. But of course, they aren't applying that standard equally to all leaders - just Rudy Giuliani.
"Balanced" indeed.
if you read my posts on this thread, you will see that i am not.
I just took my wife and 6 year old boy to see the Christmas show at Radio City Music Hall. It was pouring after the show and I told them to wait and I would go get the car which was 5 blocks away. Unthinkable before Rudy. When I worked there when Dinkins was mayor I was a 250 lb. construction worker and used to keep my tool belt on in case I needed a hammer and I still didn’t feel safe.
I remember when a cop and a drug dealer got in a shootout and wounded each other. Dinkins went to the hospital to visit the drug dealer and refused to visit the cop. Stunning.
Reading this article, it is clear that the plaque to cover all the little people who want credit for the change in Times Square must be huge, or written in very small proportional font.
I remember. I was a neighbor of Congress Gerald Nadler at the time. Even he conceded that Dinkins was an embarrassment.
Ole Joe Buck has aged pretty well.
I like your tagline and agree. Rudy would not be my first choice. But for all of his liberalism, Rudy IS an effective leader. And yes he IS a republican. He’s about the only candidate in fact that will actually point out Hillary hypocrisy. The rest of the GOP field just snipes at each other. It is no different than if I had a choice between Obama and Joe Lieberman, I’d pick Joe.
“You’re being way too logical and mature. Don’t you realize that to be a good Freeper you’re supposed to viciously bash whoever you’re against in the primary, whether it makes any sense or not, and no matter how much it might damage them should they eventually win and go on to face Hillary Clinton in the general election? ;-)”
I guess that means I am not a good Freeper.
On the other hand, if you want to have me doing some bashing, we can change the subject to Hillary, or any other Dem.
I do hope Rudy does not win the nomination. I really do not think he will win the general election. I say this based more on what I have seen and learned over the years about humans and human nature. I think others in the GOP have a better chance to win the general election.
Your hero used the remains of 9/11 victims to fill pot holes.
He's a disgusting weakling.
Who exactly are these first responders you claim to speak for? I've seen no evidence here or anywhere else that "New York's first responders" are mad at Rudy Giuliani over this petty issue. If they are, I'd be happy to talk to them, but as of now, for all I know this is just a fantasy you've constructed in your head.
Your hero used the remains of 9/11 victims to fill pot holes.
1. For the last time, where are you getting this "my hero" stuff?
2. No he didn't, and if you don't understand that there is something wrong with you.
Also filed was a 2003 letter in which the city’s chief medical examiner, Dr. Charles S. Hirsch wrote that the tiny debris particles sifted at the landfill did in fact contain human remains, and that he was “virtually certain that at least some human tissue is mixed with the dirt at the … landfill.”
http://www.nypress.com/20/19/news&columns/feature.cfm
Rudy used the remains to fill pot holes. Disgusting.
It seems clear that in those victims he saw only an opportunity to cast himself as some sort of hero. He used those victims to raise his profile and then he used them to pave the streets.
What a joke. How can you be so infatuated with a man like that?
"9/11 family members, firefighters and members of the activist group We Are Change confronted Rudy Giuliani for a second time earlier this week, as the former New York Mayor refused to answer questions about his foreknowledge of the WTC collapse and the desecration of the victim's remains."
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/010607giulianiheckled.htm
Refused to answer questions. What a man!
Do you still wonder why New York's first responders have no respect for Rudy?
Goodnight, Frank.
You cannot reason with a lunatic. Don’t even waste your keystroke and bandwidth with this guy. One is known by the company one keeps, and the gassy poster refers us to “We Are Change,” a radical leftist group, to validate his/her points. Just not worth bothering with.
The cleanup was the result of Rudy defining the principal job of the police to take care of crime as job 1, and making sure they adopted strategies to do that. It did not require a lot of advanced planning. It required getting the police to focus on details of where crimes were being committed and who was doing it.
You have to remember how hard this is anywhere, because on the average day the average citizen in New York, or anywhere, is much more focused on hating his neighbor who parked 3 hrs in a 2 hr parking zone as he is about rapists and muggers. It is something about the American psyche, I think.
just so you understand who the group is that heckled Giuliani, the “families of survivors and first responders,” as alleged elsewhere in this thread, below is from the website for the American branch of “We are Change” ... it’s international leftists.
**********************************************
Who Is Change
We Are Change is a citizens based grassroots peace and social justice movement working to reveal the truth behind the events of September 11th as well as the lies of the government and corporate elite who remain suspect in this crime. In addition, we are here to aid the sick and dying first responders through fundraising and social outreach programs in order to promote awareness of those who suffer from physical, emotional, and psychological traumas they received in the aftermath of 9-11. We also seek to meet other local citizens who are interested in educating the public while engaging in peaceful demonstration about the pertinent issues that are affecting our lives each and every day. Furthermore, We Are Change is a nonpartisan independent media organization comprised of patriot journalists working to hold those engaging in activities that do not represent the wishes of “We the People” by asking the hard questions that the controlled mainstream media refuses to do.
We Are Change has arisen from the remnants of our republic to fill the vacancy left by those who swore to preserve, protect and defend The Constitution against all enemies – foreign and domestic. We seek to expose the fraud of the left/right paradigm and reveal that the world truly functions on a top/down hierarchy that threatens to destroy free society as we know it. We Are Change works to educate, motivate, and activate those striving to uncover the truth behind the private banking cartel of the military industrial complex that is directing the majority of U.S. policy, and that is actively seeking to eliminate national sovereignty and replace it with a “one world order.” We will also continue to move in a direction that reconnects “We the People” to our nations founding principles laid out in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
We Are Change also seek an uncompromising and independent investigation into the crimes of 9-11, with subpoena power granted to obtain a long-overdue resolution for the survivors and families of the deceased. We reject the official explanation of the events leading up to, during and after the attacks of September 11th, 2001 as well as the fear-based politics and state mandated propaganda being disseminated by the Corporate Media which has facilitated the cover-up of 9-11.
As we establish citizens groups throughout the country and world, we wish to inspire a community of truth-seekers and peacemakers through creative campaigns with a commitment of nonviolence. We Are Change is not so much a group but an idea, an idea that “We the People” are the vehicles of these “ideas” and of the freedoms, liberties, and truths we are seeking all across the globe. An idea that captures the spirits of our forefathers who just desired freedom; that together, as residents of this planet, we grow like a snowball of truth and justice rolling down a mountain of tyranny growing bigger and stronger, recognizing the beauty in our differences and the diverseness of each other, but at the same time strengthening our cause because we learn and grow from each others individuality. Then as we learn to come together, that as one, you, me, him, her, us…will realize that WE ARE CHANGE.
The “We are Change” crew reminds me of the 9/11 wives who did campaign commercials for John Kerry, and Cindy Sheehan’s gang who have their grievances.
Just because someone makes a complaint doesn’t mean their complaint is valid. I’ve seen Giuliani answer questions from 9/11 truthers, but in general, if they accost him on the street, and he blows them off, that isn’t quite the same things as running away and refusing to answer questions.
BTW, they argue that we need an independent investigation of 9/11? Someone should tell them about the 9/11 Commission. Imperfect, like all investigations, but the report was highly respected and it was an enormous effort which investigated MANY, MANY issues. Some people will never be satisfied.
Your mock anger of using the dust from the WTC is unconvincing. I think those people who are upset about it are being used by those trying to stir up anger in grieving families, just as parents of soldiers lost in Iraq are used for political gains, and sick children are used to argue for socialized medicine.
What do you suggest they do with the thousands of tons of dust? Put it into a casket and bury it?
Remember that on 9/11, they thought they would need lots of bodybags, and would fill up the hospitals with injured victims, but this never happened. They either made it out of the building, or were crushed into dust. Finally, you have yet to mention how Rudy is responsible for this catastrophe.
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