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| Dec. 19, 2007
| Walter Williams
Posted on 12/20/2007 6:58:59 AM PST by wintertime
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To: mysterio
In those studies, did they test the parental involvement? As a child, my parents forced me to pick it up when I was slacking off. The parents of my peers did not. Some of them earned mediocre scores. And I'm sure some of them are on message boards right now decrying the state of the US education system. So I think scoring the entire worth of our education system using standardized tests doesn't quite tell the whole story.
The Third International Math and Science Study done in 1985 was the most complete and indepth study to date. The international tests have been given every 3rd year and the results have been similar to the one in 1985, BTW. So I would expect the data and analysis from the TIMSS to be relevant to the other test results.
TIMSS in 1985 looked at a variety of factors, not just the test results. That's the excuse that U.S. educators like to give - that standardized tests don't mean anything. Yet they completely ignore the results of this indepth study. TIMSS was conducted in 42 countries and tested over a half million students in math and science. TIMSS not only researched the results of student assessments, but also included a multiyear research project measuring the processes of education, extensive studies of curriculum and textbooks, classroom observations, teacher preparation, teacher and student interviews, student home life and attitudes. TIMSS is valued for rich comparative information about school characteristics and instructional practices and links performance with these factors. (This is from a research paper I did - about the only worthwhile class I had when getting my credential.)
Commonality of preparation (of the students), a national curriculum including textbooks, teacher preparation of the subject taught, and student support were some of the common ties in the top-ranking nations.
To: flowerplough
trying to manipulate evaluations into soft-scored group efforts that will protect those who wouldnt otherwise pass, so that the No Child tax money will keep coming inSorry to break it to both of you, but the "No Child tax money" is based on standardized test scores, not class grades...and those individual, not group, efforts.
102
posted on
12/20/2007 2:58:18 PM PST
by
Amelia
To: Wonder Warthog
Actually, most of these "inter-country" tests pick the "best and brightest" kids for each country to take part, so I suspect "parental involvement" isn't a factor. Thse are our "elite" students.
Actually, the TIMSS (trends in international math and science study) tests did test cross-section of students at all income levels and abilities. And they did do some tests on the 'best and brightest' as well, defined as those taking Calculus and Physics. Again, even in those tests, we came in last in math and next to last in physics. Or vice versa. I can't remember exactly...
To: darth
Oh no. I was hoping you were joking. ack!
104
posted on
12/20/2007 3:05:53 PM PST
by
DeLaine
(Santa....I can explain!)
To: mysterio
Having gone through public schools myself, I dont believe our schools are deficient hellholes.
It's hard to make a comparison if you only have one data point.
I went to school back in the 70s and then saw the education system again in the 90s with a child in school and by teaching for a short while. The dumbing down happened at an incredible pace during those 2 decades. Most involved parents I talk to today are shocked at the degradation and at how little is expected from their children compared to a few decades ago. (BTW, dropping SAT scores and international test scores back this up.)
To: N3WBI3
If I could live on it I would love to go into teaching but I would be taking a 50% pay cut. Been there, done that, but fortunately my husband has a "real job"....
Not to say that teachers are not aquatically paid but until the concept of paying by merit really catches up I dont the starting salary for a teacher will be high enough for me any time soon.
I think you mean "adequately", but then again, I'm not an English teacher...
By the way, what do you call an engineer wearing a hard hat?
106
posted on
12/20/2007 3:08:36 PM PST
by
Amelia
To: JenB; mysterio
Overpaid is relative to what they do, not relative to what someone else makes.
Not in the liberal, socialist world that many teachers live in. (Or would like to)
To: N3WBI3; KC_for_Freedom
This is rather discouraging, I also tested out of English.. I also tested out of English, but I didn't have to take it to get a teaching certificate. Requirements vary by state.
108
posted on
12/20/2007 3:37:35 PM PST
by
Amelia
To: wintertime
The quickest way to defund the Left and bring multidisciplinary reform across our society is for millions more families to homeschool.
THEN, and only then, will enough pressure be brought to bear on guvmint schools that they will become more suitable and effective options for the children who must attend them.
109
posted on
12/20/2007 3:44:19 PM PST
by
fightinJAG
("Tell the truth. The Pajama People are watching you.")
To: Amelia; All
I switched from Latin Education to Classics in my undergrad, and while in a MA program in Latin, I got certified to teach.
It took 3 classes to be certified to teach. Of those 3 classes, only one was useless. Something about foundations of education or something. The others were things like ed pyschology, which helped learn how to write appropriate tests, methods, taught by a HS teacher with a PhD in Greek philology and certified Latin teacher, and we learned about tools to help you teach Latin.
I wanted to become a Latinist first and a teacher second. Unfortunately, you can’t do much with a degree in Latin, besides teach. Jobs at the college level are impossible to get and pay much less than I make teaching HS.
I now teach English and Latin in S. Georgia.
But I do agree, most of the education departments and programs are as useless as convincing a Freeper to vote for Hillary.
110
posted on
12/20/2007 4:22:13 PM PST
by
shag377
(De gustibus non disputandum est.)
To: mysterio
“I might transition to teaching eventually. Still kind of mulling it over right now.”
Go for it! It will make your days a bit more interesting after retirement.
111
posted on
12/20/2007 4:25:54 PM PST
by
Old Student
(We have a name for the people who think indiscriminate killing is fine. They're called "The Bad Guys)
To: shag377
It’s nice to know some schools still offer Latin. Around here it’s only Spanish with French available only if a teacher can be found. I took Latin in high school and still use what I learned when figuring out definitions of English Latin-based words.
To: wintertime
Some of this may not matter. You don’t need to be a genius to teach the 3rd grade, or high school mathematics. You DO need to be good at organizing, communicating and leading - skills not tested by the SAT.
My wife, born in the Philippines, is considering certification to teach elementary school. She spent 20 hour days working to become an RN in her second language (third, actually). She worked for awhile, but stopped and has been homeschooling our daughter. She loves teaching, and she is a genius at getting kids to do what she wants.
Would she ace the SAT? Not without a lot of studying. Would she make a great elementary teacher? Probably. If nothing else, she would be well prepared for any health problems that came up...
Teaching school is not rocket science, but it is something many rocket scientists couldn’t do.
113
posted on
12/20/2007 5:06:44 PM PST
by
Mr Rogers
(Amnesty is Huckabee's middle name!)
To: -YYZ-
There is some truth in what you say. My first year of college, I flunked discrete structures because my teacher, from Poland, knew little English. Smart guy, but couldn't communicate.
I transferred to a different school, retook discrete structures at a higher level (this school's version of the class covered about 50% more material) and got a very high grade in it. It was taught by this professor I was speaking of earlier.
114
posted on
12/20/2007 7:41:40 PM PST
by
JamesP81
("I am against "zero tolerance" policies. It is a crutch for idiots." --FReeper Tenacious 1)
To: CottonBall
"Actually, the TIMSS (trends in international math and science study) tests did test cross-section of students at all income levels and abilities. And they did do some tests on the 'best and brightest' as well, defined as those taking Calculus and Physics. Again, even in those tests, we came in last in math and next to last in physics. Or vice versa." I wasn't aware of the TIMSS data. What I was referring to were the "Calculus, Physics (also Chemistry)" type tests. And the results for all of them gave a truly abysmal showing by the USA. The teaching "profession" has a great deal to answer for, but I doubt they'll ever be "brought on the carpet" to make that answer.
To: Mr Rogers
Would she ace the SAT?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The reason teachers, as a group, have low SAT scores is not likely due to their being born and raised in the Philippines.
By the way, IQ and SAT score are correlated.
It is also a strawman argument to say that teachers do not need to be geniuses. Walter Williams, ( nor I ) have made that claim. How can Walter Williams defend an argument that his never made?
I am also willing to bet that there is a direct correlation between the ability to lead, organize, and communicate and one’s IQ. You failed to mention creativity and originality. I would add that these, as well, are directly correlated to IQ. ( My anecdotal experience only.)
116
posted on
12/20/2007 8:29:23 PM PST
by
wintertime
(Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
To: M0sby
The government teachers on this board are, in my opinion, intelligent.( wintertime)
Im sure later in the thread we will get the useful idiot comments.(MOsby)
*^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
MOsby, surely you are aware that the “Useful Idiot” does not refer to IQ. The term is attributed to Vladimir Lenin but the origin of the term is actually unknown. Some of the most useful of the “Useful Idiots” actually had very high IQs. The following is from Wikipedia:
“political jargon, the term “useful idiot” was used to describe Soviet sympathizers in western countries (particularly in the United States) and the alleged attitude of the Soviet government towards them. The implication was that the person in question was naïve, foolish, or in willful denial, and was being cynically used by the Soviet Union, or another Communist state.”
(snip)
“The term is now used more broadly to describe someone who is perceived to be manipulated by political movement, terrorist group, or hostile government, whether or not the group is Communist in nature.”
Origins unknown
The term is purported[citation needed] to have been coined by Vladimir Lenin, sometimes in the form “useful idiots of the West”, to describe those Western reporters and travellers who would endorse the Soviet Union and its policies in the West.
117
posted on
12/20/2007 8:44:18 PM PST
by
wintertime
(Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
To: wintertime
Great Wintertime..whatever..
I was really just trying to be nice and chide a little...
Since we had butted heads before I was trying to add a bit of levity by recognizing that you said something about FReeper teachers that was particularly positive.. and wish you a Merry Christmas..
Clearly I shouldn’t have bothered..
Good Day..
118
posted on
12/20/2007 9:04:33 PM PST
by
M0sby
(((PROUD WIFE of MSgt Edwards USMC)))
To: dinoparty
I don’t want to be a teacher because I don’t want to deal with parents. When I get my Masters in Geoscience, the last thing I want is some soccer mom telling me how to teach my class or run a lab. I also would not want to deal with all the highschool drama.
119
posted on
12/20/2007 9:20:47 PM PST
by
LukeL
To: darth
I sure hope she didn’t teach science.....
120
posted on
12/20/2007 10:21:40 PM PST
by
metmom
(Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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