Posted on 11/20/2007 7:40:45 AM PST by Pyro7480
And how is this supposed to advance the abortion industry and its sponsor, the Democrat Party USA?
Because adult stem cells are limited in what kinds of cells they can develop into. Only way to make them totipotent is to re-program them into embryonic stem cells, which is what these researchers believe they have done, or at least come closer to doing than anyone else has so far.
Thanks for the ping, Resty! This does look like the best approach and not one frought with moral dilemma. The previous effort (ANT which is cloning purposely handicapped embryos). You have a major point with this, dear One. Again, thnaks for the ping and the reminder.
I have a problem with all of the above. I don’t believe that this should be happening at all.
However, the method of obtaining the stem cells from the article does not use an egg, and therefore there is no embryo created. The stem cells are obtained from skin cells (I think) and their DNA is reprogrammed to allow them to become any other kind of cell. There is no damaging or altering of a human zygote, only the changing of the DNA structure of an existing cell, to create a line of stem cells.
There is much work to be done, but this gives scientists an avenue to pursue another type of research, without harming embryos. I think it is excellent news.
I don’t think these are totipotent cells, as truly totipotent cells can only be derived from an embryo. These are stem cells that are deprogrammed to behave like totipotent cells. I am not sure of the technicalities, and am limited in my knowledge of genetics.
I am fairly sure that eggs are more than a convenient environment, they
are a necessary and essential part of reproduction. Without them, there can be no embryo, no fetus, and no unborn child. I think the entire point of this process is that the cells can be deprogrammed to act like the potentially beneficial embryonic stem cells, not that they have become or can become embryonic stem cells.
You have a mystical concept of cells. They are physical objects built from atoms and molecules, and can be tinkered with. If you want a cell to act like an embryonic cell, you just have to tinker with it until it has the same arrangement of atoms and molecules as a naturally occurring embryonic cell. Things are moving quickly in this field. Any details of how a given type of cell is built that are not known now soon will be.
I follow what you’re saying here, and I really hope so. Let’s keep an eye on this and related news as it comes up.
A Happy Thanksgiving to you. And thanks to God, Who is still in charge.
I understand cells, but I do not believe you can create embryonic cells without an egg. Please prove me wrong if you can, but I am relatively sure that is not possible. These stem cells are clearly made without the use of eggs, and are not embryonic. They will never create a fetus. Please provide evidence that they can, or quit passing along incorrect information. You seem to be a fan of stem-cell research of all kinds. Why do you seek to portray this information in a negative light?
Maybe they can “invest” those $6 billions in an effort to transform dead babies into adult skin cells.
The Future is Now: Stem Cell Debate Changes
Wesley J. Smith (exceedingly knowledgeable guy) calls new stem cell discoveries 'Bush's Triumph.'
So an even happier Thanksgiving for us all!
Some encouraging information:
“Richard Doerflinger of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said he was at a Vatican-sponsored meeting recently where the technique was described. “All the Catholic scientists and ethicists at the conference...had no moral problem with it at all,” he said.”
Either that, or they will cut off funding for this new technique since it is no longer a political wedge issue they can ride.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/20/AR2007112001909.html?hpid=topnews
After reading the Wesley Smith article, I found this rather contradictory article. It is WaPo so it has to be taken with a grain of salt. It does throw a wet blanket on my enthusiasm that embryonic cells were used extensively in the development of this procedure.
It now sounds like the work on these cells will be done in parallel with embryonic cells, in order to confirm that the cells actually act the same as ESCs. I have a problem with that, as it is still destroying embryos, even if the actual procedure does not use them. I find it hard to believe that the Vatican was aware of this, before they had no moral or ethical objection.
I am wondering about your opinion.
There’s no way Vatican science advisors would OK research that kills embryos. Therefore I have to assume that they were commenting on the work done with reprogrammed cells themselves, and not parallel work done which destroys early-stage human beings.
Doerflinger is the most reliable man on the planet on this subject, IMHO. I used to work for him in 1986-87, and he’s that unusual combination, smart (really smart) and good (really good).
If cells have all the therapeutic and research potential of embryonic stem cells, i.e. can be coaxed into becoming any type of cell or organ, then they also have the ability to develop into a whole organism. If they don’t have the ability to develop into a whole organism, then they will also lack much of the therapeutic capacity of embryonic stem cells. These researchers are not claiming to have gotten all the way there, but are claiming to have gotten a lot closer than anyone has before, and to have developed techniques which will allow them to fully reprogram cells to an embryonic and still dividing state. Perfecting the techniques to the point where stem cells of true embryonic origin wouldn’t have any significant advantage over the “de-programmed” cells would mean they have ALL the capacities of embryonic cells. If they add some special trick to prevent otherwise fully re-programmed cells from having the ability to become viable embryos, then that will have been a specific intentional act aimed at preventing viability in an embryo that otherwise would be viable — hardly much of a ethical distinction from simply rendering a viable embryo non-viable.
Just as you can pluck a pair of cells off an early stage embryo and have them continue developing and produce a whole organism (which has been done commercially for decades with cattle, and can presumably done with humans too, since splitting embryos is how identical twins arise), cells that have been FULLY reverse engineered to be identical to embryonic cells can do the same thing. Because it hasn’t quite been done yet is hardly evidence that it can’t be. Until this latest development, adult cells “couldn’t” be reprogrammed to this near-embryonic state that has now been achieved.
Egg cells don’t occupy some special category with different rules than other cell types. They spring forth from the same DNA that directs production of all other cell types and of whole organisms. What has already been done in mice is to develop immature egg and sperm cells from embryonic stem cells, with sperm cells capable of fertilizing an egg. In vitro maturation of human egg cells for fertility treatment is on the verge of being applied in clinical practice. Soon the two processes will be combined.
I don’t know why you think I’m portraying this announcement in a negative light. I think it’s great that they’ve done this and hope they can perfect the process quickly so that therapeutic applications using cells genetically matched to patients can be developed as soon as possible. I don’t regard any clump of totipotent or pluripotent cells as a person, so it doesn’t bother me a bit that they will soon be making viable embryos that are genetic matches to patients, and steering those embryos down a different course of development to obtain specific cells or organs needed for treatment.
So what I now understand about your posts is that you are not speaking at all to this most recent discovery, but rather to a potential future discovery??
You refer to the possibility that these cells will be completely reprogrammed in the future so that eggs are no longer used in reproduction. While nothing is out of the realm of possibility, I don’t think we are as close to this possibility as you do. Making babies out of skin cells is still in the realm of science fiction, and I hope that it stays that way.
If this discovery actually has the great significance for future stem-cell based research and therapies that is the basis for all the hoopla surrounding the announcement, then this discovery has made the same degree of progress towards producing viable embryos as towards producing new stem-cell based treatments that had previously been believed to be unachievable without using originally embryonic stem cells.
The origin of germ cells — i.e. sperm and egg cells — from embryonic cells occurs very, very early in embryonic development. It is therefore highly unlikely that a cell that has been been de-programmed, but not far enough back to produce germ cells, would have the capacity to produce an unlimited variety of other cell types. That’s such a critical differentiation process that it’s not located off on some minor tangent; IOW a cell that couldn’t do that would be a seriously defective embryonic cell lacking other key capabilities as well. And if it IS far enough back in the differentiation process to produce germ cells, it’s so close to a completely undifferentiated embryo that it’s very unlikely not to retain the capacity to develop into a full organism. Most identical twin humans arise at the blastocyst stage, which is after differentiation into at least 2 cell types has occurred, so at least through that stage, complete new organisms easily arise. In other words, you wouldn’t even need to de-program cells all the way back to the stage of a 4-8 cell embryo (i.e. totally undifferentiated) in order for them to produce viable embryos.
“Both studies used reprogramming of adult human cells to generate stem cells known as “induced pluripotent state cells” (iPSCs) that have all the properties of human embryonic stem cells.”
Source:http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDVlNDBkYmE5YTUxODU2ZWFkOGUxMmY3NTNiNTk2ZmU=
Notice that these are not totipotent, nor do they require an egg. Pluripotent cells can not develope into a fetus. There is nothing in this process to indicate anything you have said, and you have provided no evidence for anything you say.
Just because someday a process might be created that can take this process further, and there is a slight possibility that embryos might someday be created through a similar process does not make it likely or relavent. It would appear that you are trying to antagonize those who believe that an embryo is a human life. Maybe you could write a nice fictional story about this new process you are so knowledgeable about. I am interested in the process described in this article, not some wild idea you have about the future of genetics.
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