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Surveillance Video: Gotbaum's Last Moments At Phoenix Airport
WCBSTV ^ | October 5, 2007 | Andrew Kirtzman

Posted on 10/05/2007 4:11:07 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi

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To: CholeraJoe

“Is it your assertion that if a drunk kills themselves or someone else, the seller of the alcohol is liable?”

I believe bars/bartenders have been held liable when they continued to serve obviously drunk customers who went on to kill innocent drivers or do other bad things.

Wouldn’t it be ironic if that’s what happened? She gets to the airport sober, gets drunk in an airport bar with nowhere to go to sleep it off, then gets arrested for d&d and dies alone and unobservers in the airport’s “jail.”

I don’t really think bars should have to monitor their clientele that closely, and I think most of what happened to this woman was her own doing. But damn, they left an unstable person alone in a room with just enough resources to hurt herself.

If this had been someone’s dog hung with its own leash people would be up in arms.


61 posted on 10/05/2007 8:17:56 AM PDT by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: Kozak

“At any point does this woman not have any responsibility for her actions?”

She has responsibility for most of her actions up to the point where she was taken into “custody.” Custody means that some other authority takes responsibility for your welfare.


62 posted on 10/05/2007 8:25:57 AM PDT by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: Erik Latranyi

“Regardless, she is solely responsible for what happened. Nobody else.”

If she’d been killed in the struggle with the cops, that’d be one thing. But they had her subdued and handcuffed. They put her in a room and left her unobserved long enough for her to kill herself with the tools they “supplied” her with - handcuffs and two feet of chain.

Whatever else she might have done as a result of her condition, she was in the custody of some level of officialdom - airport, police, federal - when she died. It shouldn’t have ended this way.


63 posted on 10/05/2007 8:38:43 AM PDT by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: PLMerite
She has responsibility for most of her actions up to the point where she was taken into “custody.” Custody means that some other authority takes responsibility for your welfare.

No it doesn't. Nothing about being in custody removes your responsibility for your actions. If you don't think so, try and assault an officer next time you are in custody.
64 posted on 10/05/2007 8:42:54 AM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: There is no god named Allah, and Muhammed is a false prophet)
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To: Kozak

“No it doesn’t.”

Yes, it does. They’re not allowed to let you just die in jail. They have to feed and clothe you and see that you get some level of medical care.

It was a “holding cell” at a major US airport, not an oobliet in a medievel castle.

(I got “oobliet” from the movie “Labyrinth,” not because I’m some dark ages torture geek.)


65 posted on 10/05/2007 8:54:42 AM PDT by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: Tolsti
I’m a bit baffled at why this is such a major news story.

1. Media types report stories about people with whom they identify. For example, go to Fox News, and every time an attractive, young blond woman is kidnapped you will get the ubiquitous Fox News Alert. Poor black, white, Hispanic women are kidnapped all the time, but such crimes never make the TV news because the reporterettes don't identify with them.

2. Look at the last name of the woman who died in Phoenix. Then look at the last name of the people who control the media in NYC (and by extension the rest of the country). It goes back to point 1 above; she was a person whom the media types identify with as one of them.

QED

66 posted on 10/05/2007 9:07:21 AM PDT by OldCorps
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To: PLMerite
Yes, it does. They’re not allowed to let you just die in jail. They have to feed and clothe you and see that you get some level of medical care.

She didn't starve to death. She killed herself trying to pull a Houdini and get out of her cuffs, a freak accident. Do you think EVERYONE in jail should be under 24/7 continuous surveillance because they MIGHT do something stupid?
67 posted on 10/05/2007 9:08:43 AM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: There is no god named Allah, and Muhammed is a false prophet)
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To: PLMerite

No it shouldnt have ended this way...
and probably wouldnt have if her family, who was well aware of her mental instability, had taken the responsibility of her to begin with. Instead they sent her off across the country alone. Makes me kinda go hmmmmmmm.


68 posted on 10/05/2007 9:11:45 AM PDT by donnab (Saving liberal brains...one moron at a time.)
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To: PLMerite
But they had her subdued and handcuffed. They put her in a room and left her unobserved long enough for her to kill herself with the tools they “supplied” her with - handcuffs and two feet of chain.

First, you are insane if you think law enforcement has to watch everyone in a holding cell. That is not possible unless you want to pay twice as much in taxes to have paid "watchers" stand around.

Second, this woman was not suicidal....at least to the police. If they had stopped her from killing herself, then they need to put her on suicide watch. That is not the case here.

Lastly, she may have calmed down a bit when they put her in the holding area, then became hysterical again while thinking about her predicament.

You cannot hold law enforcement responsible for what happened. They have no obligation to watch a non-suicidal person.

69 posted on 10/05/2007 9:23:50 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (The Democratic Party will not exist in a few years....we are watching history unfold before us.)
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To: donnab

“Makes me kinda go hmmmmmmm.”

Yeah, there’s probably all kinds of weird family dynamics in this one.


70 posted on 10/05/2007 9:34:58 AM PDT by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: PLMerite

For those of you questioning why it took so much force to subdue a small woman, watch this video of a police officer trying to handcuff a 15 year-old tiny girl.

If you can watch this and say police use too much force, you should have your citizenship revoked.

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/6414.html


71 posted on 10/05/2007 9:41:56 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (The Democratic Party will not exist in a few years....we are watching history unfold before us.)
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To: Erik Latranyi

I don’t question the force used. I question leaving a disturbed woman alone in a room. I wonder what the rules were for transporting and holding that 15-year-old girl?


72 posted on 10/05/2007 9:44:11 AM PDT by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: PLMerite
I question leaving a disturbed woman alone in a room.

How do you know she is disturbed?

73 posted on 10/05/2007 9:46:56 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (The Democratic Party will not exist in a few years....we are watching history unfold before us.)
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To: conservativehusker
he was always such a good kid....

and just about to turn his life around!

74 posted on 10/05/2007 10:05:21 AM PDT by TankerKC (32570 21R)
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To: Erik Latranyi

“How do you know she is disturbed?”

Anyone who has to be restrained is disturbed. This includes violently drunk.


75 posted on 10/05/2007 10:19:08 AM PDT by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: PLMerite
I believe bars/bartenders have been held liable when they continued to serve obviously drunk customers who went on to kill innocent drivers or do other bad things.

There was a gas station in Carlsbad, CA a few years back that got hit for selling gas to a customer that drove off (drunk) and killed some folks. That's plain crazy.

76 posted on 10/05/2007 10:34:16 AM PDT by TankerKC (32570 21R)
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To: Erik Latranyi
so alcohol and depression and being "connected" make it OKAY to treat her like a hardened terrorist?.....

two pathologists were on FOX this morning...both said that there was NO way she could have stangled herself, and more likely there was pressure put on her back or her chest that caused aphysxia......she was the mother of three children for crying out loud......

I've said this on another thread....some cops get their rocks off by restraining females, especially younger ones, and especially if they are good looking..

77 posted on 10/05/2007 12:54:01 PM PDT by cherry
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To: Kozak
when they tackled her, she was standing still...they came at her like she was a terrorist....she had no weapon...she was not threatening anyone.....

cuffs is not the question....the question is how a youngish woman is DEAD after being in police custody.....how often does that happen in your ER?.....I'll bet nobody is left with restraints alone in a room, and if you do, you are violating commonly accepted safeguards when it comes to restraints...

78 posted on 10/05/2007 12:57:39 PM PDT by cherry
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To: wideawake

there are supposedly witnesses that say she was limp when they put her in that room....


79 posted on 10/05/2007 12:58:32 PM PDT by cherry
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To: cherry

Utter nonsense. She refused to cooperate with the police instructions, clearly shown on the video. Witnesses said she had broken her cell phone striking others. She was completely out of control and needed to be restrained.

By the way there is no requirement to keep anyone in the ER in restraints under constant observation. If that were the case EVERY ER nurse in the country would do nothing else on a Saturday night. You restrain them, then check on them periodically, every 10 to 15 minutes.


80 posted on 10/05/2007 1:14:25 PM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: There is no god named Allah, and Muhammed is a false prophet)
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