Posted on 09/25/2007 8:30:06 PM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
There have been a number of statements he made in letters and /or diaries where he expressed the view that blacks were inferior to whites.
His feelings about slavery and blacks privately were for a long time not what he might have said publicly.
Look it up.
*80* years later. It would have been IF IT WAS A KNOWN SUNSET EARLIER. There was no sunset ever built into federal law. There was for the official slave trade, and sunsetting the whole bit maybe c.1830 or so could’ve gotten everyone used to the idea of no slavery. By the 1850s, a new generation or so had grown up completely used to the idea of slavery and never really questioned it, either. There may have been arguments about slavery specifically, but there were never arguments about the nature of freedom, of man, etc., because that was not an issue to the post-Rev generations.
If mothers ruled the world, blacks would still be slaves.
For example?
As I stated, “US rules”. Yes, would’ve been nice to be right in the Constitution, but perhaps something could’ve happened if a later congressional debate over a law occurred. I’m very aware how both the DOI and the Const. wouldn’t make it through by discussing slavery directly. And I agree, it wasn’t worth sacrificing the Const (or maybe even the DOI) over that. Of course, most liberals don’t agree, and curse the Founders over just this issue.
I know you didn’t ask me.
But Lincoln would be a god.
Washington is already in the toilet; by then he will be condemned to Hell.
An example of how much the slavery thing means to liberals.
If this movie is going to be about how Lincoln rallied the North to the cause, how is Spielberg gonna address that? Unless he just leaves that part out. And if this movie has Oscar written all over it, he will be called on that. Or maybe Spielberg will be honest in how the North really came around to supporting the Civil War...naaahh.
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"Four thcore and theven yearth ago....."
I'm really not sure about Lincoln. Remember that blacks will be comfortably outnumbered by Latinos by 2050. And already blacks and Latinos aren't getting along in areas where there are significant numbers of both groups. Will those Latinos really care much about black slavery? Add in the fact that white opinion won't carry much weight by then, and those whites who do maintain clout will be the ultra-left who despise Lincoln for not trying to free the slaves from the very moment he took office, and for not being a racial egalitarian.
The Democratic left changed our immigration laws in 1965 with the deliberate purpose of altering the demographics of our nation in such a way that it would doom the Republicans, at least conservative Republicans. The Republicans, being the stupid party as always, voted for the bill. Liberal immigration laws combined with unguarded borders, Political Correctness, and multi-culturalism equal national suicide. As Peter Brimelow noted, our politicians are replacing the traditional population of the U.S. with a new third-worldish one that is largely dependent and has no particular loyalty to the nation, and certainly no regard for its history and heroes.
So in 2050, with blacks outvoted by Latinos, and white liberals and PC Cons (they'll still be around) pandering to the latter more than the former, our memories of Lincoln may be increasingly irrelevant, if not hostile. The specific positive thing he did for blacks (freeing the slaves, albeit in a roundabout way) may not matter as much as his overall failure to promote a society based on racial and gender egalitarianism.
Homosexuality is the wild card. If the myth about Lincoln being gay takes hold, that might save him.
But Lincoln preserved the union! Isn't that worth something? In a preserved union, yes. In a borderless land that is racially Balkanizing, no.
Mrs. Lincoln had a hard row to hoe. I hope Field does justice to the role.
Lincoln was also a vocal opponent of the Mexican-American War. That should do it.
Good thinking! And you may be right! Of course, Lincoln also voted to support the troops in the field.
I’m hoping to they give plenty of screen time to Taddy.
"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
Abraham Lincoln, "Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois", 18 Sep 1858, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. III, pp. 145-146.
"Judge Douglas has said to you that he has not been able to get from me an answer to the question whether I am in favor of negro-citizenship. So far as I know, the Judge never asked me the question before. He shall have no occasion to ever ask it again, for I tell him very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship."
Abraham Lincoln, "Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois", 18 Sep 1858, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. III, p. 179.
"I have all the while maintained, that in so far as it should be insisted that there was an equality between the white and black races that should produce a perfect social and political equality, it was an impossibility."
Abraham Lincoln, "Fifth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas, at Galesburg, Illinois", 7 Oct 1858, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. III, pp. 221-222.
"Mr. Lincoln is not pledged to the ultimate extinctinction [sic] of slavery; does not hold the black man to be the equal of the white, unqualifiedly as Mr. S. states it; and never did stigmatize their white people as immoral & unchristian; and Mr. S. can not prove one of his assertions true."
Abraham Lincoln, "To Henry J. Raymond", 18 Dec 1860, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. IV, p. 156.
"You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffer very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence. If this is admitted, it affords a reason, at least, why we should be separated."
Abraham Lincoln, "Address on Colonization to a Deputation of Negroes", 14 Aug 1862, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol V, p. 371.
"But even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race. You are cut off from many of the advantages which the other race enjoy. The aspiration of men is to enjoy equality with the best when free, but on this broad continent, not a single man of your race is made the equal of a single man of ours. Go where you are treated the best, and the ban is still upon you."
Abraham Lincoln, "Address on Colonization to a Deputation of Negroes", 14 Aug 1862, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol V, p. 372.
"Negro equality! Fudge!! How long, in the government of a God, great enough to make and maintain this Universe, shall there continue knaves to vend, and fools to gulp, so low a piece of demagoguism as this?"
Abraham Lincoln, "Fragmenst: Notes for Speeches ", 1859 (annotation: The third fragment might well have been jotted down at any time between December, 1858, and March, 1860), Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol III, p. 399.
"But what shall we do with the Negroes after they are free? I believe that it would be better to export them all to some fertile country with a good climate, which they could have to themselves."
Abraham Lincoln, cited by Benjamnin F. Butler, Autobiography and Personal Reminiscences of Major-General Benj. F. Butler, Book Publishers, Boston, 1892, p. 903
"I think the authors of that notable instrument [the Declaration] intended to include all men, but they did not intend to declare all men equal in all respects." [italics in original]
Abraham Lincoln, "Speech at Springfield, Illinois", 26 Jun 1857, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. II, p. 405.
"But Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: agreed for once---a thousand times agreed. There are white men enough to marry all the white women, and black men enough to marry all the black women; and so let them be married. On this point we fully agree with the Judge; and when he shall show that his policy is better adapted to prevent amalgamation than ours we shall drop ours, and adopt his."
Abraham Lincoln, "Speech at Springfield, Illinois", 26 Jun 1857, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. II, pp. 407-408.
"A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation but as an immediate separation is impossible the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together." [italics in original]
Abraham Lincoln, "Speech at Springfield, Illinois", 26 Jun 1857, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. II, p. 408.
"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation."
Abraham Lincoln, "Speech at Springfield, Illinois", 26 Jun 1857, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. II, p. 408.
"Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization; and no political party, as such, is now doing anything directly for colonization. Party operations at present only favor or retard colonization incidentally. The enterprise is a difficult one; but ``when there is a will there is a way;'' and what colonization needs most is a hearty will. Will springs from the two elements of moral sense and self-interest. Let us be brought to believe it is morally right, and, at the same time, favorable to, or, at least, not against, our interest, to transfer the African to his native clime, and we shall find a way to do it, however great the task may be."
Abraham Lincoln, "Speech at Springfield, Illinois", 26 Jun 1857, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. II, p. 409.
"My declarations upon this subject of negro slavery may be misrepresented, but can not be misunderstood. I have said that I do not understand the Declaration to mean that all men were created equal in all respects. They are not our equal in color; but I suppose that it does mean to declare that all men are equal in some respects; they are equal in their right to ``life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.'' Certainly the negro is not our equal in color--- perhaps not in many other respects; still, in the right to put into his mouth the bread that his own hands have earned, he is the equal of every other man, white or black."
Abraham Lincoln, "Speech at Springfield, Illinois", 17 Jul 1858, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. II, p. 520.
"My first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia,---to their own native land. But a moment's reflection would convince me, that whatever of high hope, (as I think there is) there may be in this, in the long run, its sudden execution is impossible. If they were all landed there in a day, they would all perish in the next ten days; and there are not surplus shipping and surplus money enough in the world to carry them there in many times ten days. What then? Free them all, and keep them among us as underlings? Is it quite certain that this betters their condition? I think I would not hold one in slavery, at any rate; yet the point is not clear enough to me to denounce people upon. What next? Free them, and make them politically and socially, our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this; and if mine would, we well know that those of the great mass of white people will not."
Abraham Lincoln, "First Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Ottawa, Illinois", 21 Aug 1858, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. III, p. 15.
"Now gentlemen, I don't want to read at any greater length, but this is the true complexion of all I have ever said in regard to the institution of slavery and the black race. This is the whole of it, and anything that argues me into his idea of perfect social and political equality with the negro, is but a specious and fantastic arrangement of words, by which a man can prove a horse chestnut to be a chestnut horse. I will say here, while upon this subject, that I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which in my judgment will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong, having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects---certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. But in the right to eat the bread, without leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man." [italics in original]
Abraham Lincoln, "First Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Ottawa, Illinois", 21 Aug 1858, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. III, p. 16.
"I had no thought in the world that I was doing anything to bring about a political and social equality of the black and white races. It never occurred to me that I was doing anything or favoring anything to reduce to a dead uniformity all the local institutions of the various States. But I must say, in all fairness to him, if he thinks I am doing something which leads to these bad results, it is none the better that I did not mean it. It is just as fatal to the country, if I have any influence in producing it, whether I intend it or not."
Abraham Lincoln, "First Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Ottawa, Illinois", 21 Aug 1858, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. III, p. 19.
"In the course of his reply, Senator Douglas remarked, in substance, that he had always considered this government was made for the white people and not for the Negroes. Why, in point of mere fact, I think so, too." Abraham Lincoln, "Speech at Peoria, Illinois", 16 Oct 1854, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, (Roy P. Basler, ed.), Vol. II, p. 281.
Makes one wonder if Lincoln wore a hood.
People who think Spielberg is going to roast Lincoln are severely naive.
I’ll say it again and again: PC liberals love Lincoln, and Spielberg is no exception.
After all, this is the guy who can’t even make a film about Israel without making it out to be the bad guy. Liberal to the core.
No, that would be Nathan Forrest. But I digress.
What I was looking for was information on the letters and diaries that Captain Blood was referring to. I'm well acquainted with Lincoln's speeches and all of what he said in the debates with Douglas. And I'm also familiar with his other quotes which show that, unlike all Southern leaders of the time, Lincoln was opposed to slavery. But if there are secret, private writings which indicate a different Lincoln then I'm not aware of them. I was hoping that Cap'n Blood could enlighten us.
Yes, it would have been nice if there'd been a debate in Congress over the matter. But the fact is that every time that the subject came up, the slave states would shut it down with gag rules. They weren't interested in talking, and as later events would show, would rather start shoot than debate.
The comment in the post was that Lincoln thought blacks inferior.
Those quotes quite clearly show so.
The comment was not about slavery or no slavery, specifically, but about blacks, generally.
When you are debating, why do you often resort to the "so's your mother" argument? I have often wondered about it. You are well read, articulate... Can you not just straightforward debate another post without resorting to such a tactic.
Not a slam... just a question.
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