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US Military in Dogfight Over Drones
Financial Times ^ | August 19, 2007 | Demetri Sevastopulo

Posted on 08/19/2007 7:31:22 PM PDT by MCH

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To: centurion316
This remark does not apply to the Air Force enlisted combat air controllers and security police who are fighting side by side with their smelly Army and Marine brethern - only the perfumed princes wearing wing who populate the POAC.

Does it apply to the deployed pilots and aircrew who are flying their asses off over Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere? They certainly want to take it to the bad guys. BTW, what is a "POAC"?

41 posted on 08/19/2007 10:03:23 PM PDT by SIDENET (More fun than a beer left in the freezer.)
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To: SIDENET

Change those decals to “Army”, and there’s not much difference...


42 posted on 08/19/2007 10:03:57 PM PDT by SteveMcKing
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To: MCH

I think this is a power grab attempt by the airforce out of desperation. Whats got to scare the procurement generals is UAV’s cost a fraction of the cost to purchase and operate then the other aircraft. Like 1/20-1/50th.

As they get more and more capable, especially in this war against guerillas who don’t have advanced equipment of their own.. the army and marines will do more and more of the airstrikes and formerly typical airforce jobs. Without need for the airforce. Then comes the pressure to cut down new procurement for the airforce of the 250 million dollar planes, and give that money to the army. To get more bang for their buck.


43 posted on 08/19/2007 10:19:43 PM PDT by ran20
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To: SteveMcKing
Change those decals to “Army”, and there’s not much difference...

No disrespect towards my Army brethren and not wanting to get into a discussion of doctrine, but there is a world of difference in how the Army and Air Force do business.

44 posted on 08/19/2007 10:22:04 PM PDT by SIDENET (More fun than a beer left in the freezer.)
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To: MCH

Good points.

‘Pod.


45 posted on 08/19/2007 10:24:26 PM PDT by sauropod (You can’t spell crap without the AP in it.)
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To: MCH

the USAF wants all the UAV’s for itself. Operated by officers, no doubt.


46 posted on 08/19/2007 10:26:03 PM PDT by kms61
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To: MCH
Letting the zoomies win this fight would be a nightmare for the other services. The Air Force abandoned close air support because it wasn’t sexy enough for their fighter-jock mentality, forcing the Army and Marines to sneak their programs in by the backdoor.

They worked their butts off to kill Army aviation back in the sixties even though they had no interest in buying the aircraft and doing it themselves.

Now that UAVs are turning out to be much more useful and flexible than anyone had ever suspected, the Air Force is determined to get a hammerlock on them.

The alternative will be to become even less relevant in the future.

47 posted on 08/19/2007 11:06:07 PM PDT by Ronin (Bushed out!!! Another tragic victim of BDS.)
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To: Ronin

BUMP!


48 posted on 08/20/2007 12:04:51 AM PDT by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: MCH

Bump for later.


49 posted on 08/20/2007 2:07:35 AM PDT by JSteff (Reality= understanding you are not nearly important enough for the government to tap your phone.)
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To: MCH

Does executive agency really = tactical control of acquired weapon systems? I don’t see it that way.


50 posted on 08/20/2007 2:25:09 AM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (Can I cast the second stone?)
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To: cpdiii
I think I am "gonna get" flamed.

If only because you are incredibly behind the times. SAC hasn't existed since the early 90's.

51 posted on 08/20/2007 2:31:38 AM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (Can I cast the second stone?)
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To: cpdiii
...Joint Chiefs of Command.

Yeah...ok. *snicker*

52 posted on 08/20/2007 2:35:16 AM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (Can I cast the second stone?)
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To: Ronin

IMHO, the entire debate is very similar to Communications and Data control within the staff ranks.

At senior field to flag rank officer levels, within staff planning functions, there has always been a tendency for particular staff officers to lay claim to all resources in theater under their charge to unify their control of those resources.

With respect to aviation assets, the arguments are operational and tactical and strategic. From the grunt perspective, the resources need to be directly attached to their units, decentralized control, centralized command.

Same may be said of computers and wireless comm. Local users need their utility as tools to perform their work, whereas broader policy makers see them as the resources available to manage, and without centralized management, they fear loss of efficiency and control.

IMHO, perhaps the issues need to resolved at higher levels, maintaining certain resources remain dedicated as part of the T/E of lower echelon units to retain their unit integrity, not to be reassigned by staff organizations to other priorities.

A MAGTF without its air, isn’t a MAGTF anymore, nor is a VMU squadron supporting the MAGTF when reassigned to a higher headquarters.

Same arguments apply to the Army and Air Force. WRT aviation assets, it also gets more complicated attempting to deconflict air control within remote areas. It is as nutty as sending in black op units into the AOA without coordination with that JTF Commander/Staff.


53 posted on 08/20/2007 2:53:28 AM PDT by Cvengr (The violence of evil is met with the violence of righteousness, justice, love and grace.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
The scarf wearing prima donnas in the Chair Force can FOAD.

Thanks for your thoughtful addition to the debate.

54 posted on 08/20/2007 3:57:41 AM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (Can I cast the second stone?)
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To: SIDENET
BTW, what is a "POAC"?

Pentagon Officer's Athletic Club (actually, it is now the PAC)

Our friend needs to forward his complaints to the weather, trans, logistics, intel, PJ and others that are on the ground supporting AF and ILO missions.

55 posted on 08/20/2007 4:18:46 AM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (Can I cast the second stone?)
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To: RobbyS
Tactical Air Command has always been the step-child of the flyboys.

I call BS on many accounts...the first beign that there hasn't been a TAC since the early 90s. So many experts on this thread.

56 posted on 08/20/2007 4:21:24 AM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (Can I cast the second stone?)
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To: MCH
“Why does the army have to have organic control [leaving] a large footprint in harms way?” says Col Bartlett. “[The air force] can provide the same combat capability from Nevada that the army can provide on the battlefield.”

Right up to the point where your communications satellite meets with a "mishap", leaving all your drones without controllers.

Given anti-satellite capabilities demonstrated by the Chinese, who wants to bet American lives that they won't sell anti-satellite technology to Iran, Pakistan, or whoever we get to fight next?

57 posted on 08/20/2007 4:28:13 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Open Season rocks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymLJz3N8ayI)
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To: Half Vast Conspiracy
So many experts on this thread.

No kidding. I especially liked the references to SAC and TAC. Who knew that they were still around? I also read in one post that the AF has abandoned CAS. We have? That's news to me.

It's funny that none of these experts have said anything about airspace deconfliction with all of these UAVs, even though it was mentioned in the article.

58 posted on 08/20/2007 5:16:03 AM PDT by SIDENET (More fun than a beer left in the freezer.)
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To: cpdiii
I think I am "gonna get" flamed.

Not from me brother. There is no reason for a separate Air Force. They should be integrated into the ground and naval forces. All the Air Force guys will scream and insist that there is a real need for a separate service but it's just another layer of officers.

59 posted on 08/20/2007 5:42:48 AM PDT by USS Alaska (Nuke the terrorist savages - In Honor of Standing Wolf)
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To: USS Alaska

Ground forces do not know how to employ aircraft. Not at the tactical level, and certainly not at the strategic. I’ve spent more than enough time on the ground with the US Army to know that most of their officers think in 2 dimensions, and rarely more than 50 miles from wherever they are at.

I say that having spent a lot of time trying to explain how a single aircraft can support efforts in 2 brigades, or more commonly trying to explain to battalions that aircraft can’t sit above them for 8 hours waiting for something to happen, while fights are going on 50 miles away.

The most common response was, “You’ll do anything we want.” This led me to believe many Army officers never took high school physics.

And having watch the US Army run helicopter resupply, I thank God the USAF runs the air bridge to Iraq and Afghanistan!


60 posted on 08/20/2007 6:14:55 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I'm agnostic on evolution, but sit ups are from Hell!)
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