Pope set to declare income tax evasion 'socially unjust'(budget crisis in Italy)

The Times of London ^ | 08/11/2007 | Richard Owen

[SirLinksalot]

Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser’s, and unto God that which is God’s.”

This leads to 2 questions :

1) In America, aren't the people part of Caesar, since we get to decide who the leaders who decide what our tax code should be will be elected.

2) How much should Caesar take ? Should we work from January to May just to satisfy Caesar ?

[PBRSTREETGANG]

Good questions both.

And if you believe that “Caeser” is doing something essentially immoral with the money?

[Pyro7480]

And when will they keep out of matters of law and politics?

If your advice were followed, there would be no pro-life movement as it exists today.

[KingSnorky]

>>You didn’t answer mine either...........so does your church pay taxes?<<

You missed my point entirely. Rather Catholic or Protestant or any other faith, I think it’s more than a little tacky for the leader of a tax-exempt organization — religious or otherwise — to lecture others against minimizing their tax burden.

[SirLinksalot]

the pontiff will denounce the use of “tax havens” and offshore bank accounts by wealthy individuals, since this reduces tax revenues for the benefit of society as a whole.

I'm not sure if this is necessarilly true.

What if some wealthy individual reasons to himself saying that he knows better than bureacuracts in Washington how to benefit society as a whole through his judicious use of his money to create jobs that employ thousands of people and to help the poor the best way he thinks he can ?

The above statement makes an assumption that begs a question --- WHY SHOULD REDUCED TAX REVENUES TO GOVERNMENTS (or the UNITED NATIONS -- the ultimate government bureaucracy ) result in LESS BENEFIT to society as a whole ? Has that thesis been proven to everyone's satisfaction ?

[JTHomes]

You’re right, this could be MSM BS. I finally saw the Da Vinci Code this weekend. It has my anti-authority panties all in a bunch. I love God, but the Church... I think its failings speak for themselves. Humans, even moral and well meaning ones, are too easily tempted by power and its arrogance.

[badpacifist]

Yes he is tax exempt of course he doesn’t live here. The church does and in many other countries. So he is telling his people to pay their taxes. If you weren’t Catholic ....why would you listen to a Pope...unless you were going to make comments against something he said. I don’t pay much attention to what the Dali Lama says. So his is telling his people to obey the law of the land within reason....big deal.

[Kellis91789]

I think all this shows is that the Pope has no concept of how an economy works.

The Italian law prompting the Pope’s announcement was specifically targeting people with “conspicuous wealth”. In other words, the people that drive an economy through their own striving for personal rewards. The Italian government, and now the Pope, want to reduce those rewards. If they succeed in reducing the rewards, they’ll also reduce their economy. The only class of people that will continue to work when personal rewards have been taken away are slaves.

The excerpt mentions that the TAXES due that are being evaded are equal to 27% of the Italian GDP. Think about that. The tax “gap” in the US is less than 4% of GDP. The entire US Federal government budget is less than 27% of our GDP. So how much in taxes are Italians paying ? Add what they are PAYING to what they are EVADING, and just how high is the TOTAL TAX collection their government is expecting ?

A tax gap of 27% of GDP is probably a clue that the people have decided taxes are way too high. Maybe they should try lowering the rates and see if that tax gap shrinks. People are more willing to pay a tax they think is fair.

[Continental Soldier]

The Pope is using his position to condemn tax evasion? Is this some kind of joke? Or are we witnessing the final death throes of Christianity? Not long ago, we read that the Pope had proclamations to make about everything from drunk driving to cigarette smoking. Hey, Pope, wasn’t your job the salvation of souls? At what point did you become the stooge for secular government programs?

[KingSnorky]

You seem determine to conclude that I have something against the Catholic Church. Sorry to disappoint, but that’s simply not the case.

If the Holy Father or any other clergy want to take a public policy stand, fine...but that means they are fair game for criticism as much as any politician or activist.

As for your question “If you weren’t Catholic ....why would you listen to a Pope...” My answer: because the pontiff is not only the spiritual father of millions of Catholics, he’s also the head of state of Vatican City. And as such, he can have a profound effect on the course of world events; a perfect example of what I mean is when crazed Islamofascists rioted after Benedict’s right-on-the-mark speech at the University of Regensburg in September of ‘06.

And if if makes you feel better, I’ll gladly slam some a Protestant denomination...such as a couple that come to mind which openly support Palestinian terror against Israel. Just let me know. :)

[Kellis91789]

[Pope Benedict intends to argue for a world trade and economic system “regulated in such a way as to avoid further injustice and discrimination”, ]

And that can be accomplished through the discriminatory selection of wealthy people and the injustice of stealing what is rightfully theirs ?

Successful people are one of those minority groups which cannot be discriminated against, I guess.

And of course, they have no property rights to the fruits of their labors, so stealing from them cannot possibly be an injustice, can it ?

[oblomov]

Good thing for the 1st Amendment.

[ikka]

the pontiff will denounce the use of “tax havens” and offshore bank accounts by wealthy individuals

And the pontiff will be wrong.

[3niner]

So how much tax did the Pope pay last year, while enjoying fabulous wealth, and claiming to adhere to a vow of poverty?

[WarEagle]

If you weren’t Catholic ....why would you listen to a Pope...unless you were going to make comments against something he said.

Sounds like you're looking for and expecting non-Catholics to be anti-Catholic. I think you don't give your fellow FReepers enough credit.

I honor Pope Benedict as a fine example of living the word, and pay attention to what he says. I don't always agree, but that in no way makes me anti-Catholic.

I do not, and never have, agreed with members of a religious order who take an oath of poverty making sweeping statements about how the world economy should be run. If you listen to them, we all throw all our money and possessions in one big pot and dole them out to those who need them most. Sound familiar? In the world we all live in this does not work. However, this is the way the world they live in runs.

They don't teach Economics 101, especially Austrian school economics, in monasteries. And I'm glad they don't.

I want religious leaders to focus on guiding us in the path of Jesus. The better job of that they do, the less they will think we need their economic guidance.

[nicollo]

Hmm... tax evasion more a problem where taxes are higher? Doh!

Btw, the words “tax shelter” were far more important in the U.S. when the income tax rate was at current European levels. Tax statists truly think that income remains static regardless of taxation.

[Patriotic1]

Tax minimization is fine - tax evasion is not. If we don't like the laws and regulations, we should change them, not break them. I think the Pope is aiming his statements at lawbreakers, not the person trying to stay within the letter of the law.

[Patriotic1]

Given that he is the head of his own country, and probably has little personal salary, he probably pays very little. What fabulous wealth do you see?

[Paved Paradise]

Absolutely right. The tax system should be fair to all. The way it is now, those rich enough to hire good tax attorneys and so on can find the loopholes, of which there are many. As you say, 32,000 pages is ridiculous. I’m for a flat tax - simple enough a kid could figure it out.

[Ferris]

The Pope should know that a tax on production [income] is incredibly immoral and evil at it's very core.. And yet he's saying the opposite.. What does that say about the pope????