Posted on 06/23/2007 1:28:02 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
You left out the last part of the verse, “that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” Are Mormons claiming to be Gods here and now? I assume not, so how can “being one” help the “world” believe? Being one, one church, one body, one community is how it helps. It is a prayer for unity among Christians, to be one body.
John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.”
These are the words of Christ. I believe them. Do you?
You are exactly right. And that is the same relationship that exists between God the Father and Jesus Christ, His Son. That is exactly why Christ says,"as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee." Christ is here refuting the nonsense of the "Trinity" and expressly saying that we are all one by the principles of righteousness that bind us together.
So you already think you are a God? Poppycock.
John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.”
These are the words of Christ. I believe them. Do you?
Your theology is similar to this:
Being a living goddess has its advantages for 10-year-old girl
Chicago Trubune ^ | June 27, 2007 | Neela Banerjee
Posted on 06/29/2007 1:25:55 PM EDT by rochester
WASHINGTON — Even by the standards of the luminaries who sweep through Washington, the little girl in front of Lafayette Elementary School almost six miles north of the White House was special. Politicians, power brokers and the occasional celebrities who come through town hope to be respected and maybe, in a childlike place in their grown-up hearts, genuinely liked. Sajani Shakya, 10, is worshipped. In Nepal, Sajani is a living goddess, one of about a dozen such goddesses in her homeland who are considered earthly manifestations of the Hindu goddess Kali.
(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...
2 Peter 3
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
And this from the Apostle who was with Jesus in His ministry, in the Garden, at His trial, witness to His resurrection and post-mortal ministry.
Well if you think believing in the same things and having the same goals make you part of God, the same as Christ, then you are a God the minute you believe. Why do you have to wait for death before you become a God? You are one now.
Sorry, the parable of the labourers just doesn’t support your view. Even those who came at the end “laboured,” didn’t they?
They talk about the Spirit of the Lord but it is evident they have not tasted the Spirit of the Lord!
That is why when I read this it rang true and the scriptures witness of one another
JS-H 1: 19 (5-26).
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
b Ezek. 33: 31 (30-33).
31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
Isa. 48: 1.
1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel,<,b>but not in truth, nor in righteousness.
Matt. 15: 8 (7-9).
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Isa. 1: 13.
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
The Lord foretold that his Church would apostatized
Acts 20: 29
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Rom. 11: 21
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
1 Cor. 1: 11
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1 Cor. 3: 3
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1 Cor. 11:
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
Gal. 1:
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal. 3:
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Col. 2:
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
2 Thes. 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
1 Tim. 1:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
• • •
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1 Tim. 4:
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Tim. 1:
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
2 Tim. 2:
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2 Tim. 3:
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2 Tim. 4:
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Titus 1:
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
• • •
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
James 4:
1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Pet. 2:
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
• • •
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Pet. 3:
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
1 Jn. 2:
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 Jn. 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
3 Jn. 1
9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
Jude 1
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rev. 2:
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
• • •
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev. 3
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev. 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
This is going to be a long post, because it is primarily a Bible study offered in love. The discussion was on works v faith and you gave the example of your uncle 'exercising faith' then 'falling away' and you presume God removes His Salvation (The Blood Of The Lamb Of God) from your uncle when the uncle fails to behave sufficiently to guarantee God's Saving Grace to him. That IS an argument on faith v works/works v faith.
We know you initially intended to argue along these lines since you cited Matthew 10:22, using that verse outside of the context in which Jesus spoke to His disciples regarding the trials to come. You imply that IF an disciple, one already proclaimed by Jesus to be in Heaven with Him by God's persepctive, IF an disciple would 'maintain to the end', THEN and only (as poor Resty tried to assert) then would Salvation of the immortal soul be granted ... making your argument become exposed as works superior to faith. That is why I offered for your consideration Romans 3:27 and if you will read onward from there, through Romans 4:4-9 you will read Paul's teaching of faith v works and justification.
You claimed: You missed the point. My point was that agency continues beyond acceptance of Christ, and that a person can, indeed, fall away, and Christ will not violate that choice. My point was not about faith vs. works. Sorry, tantiboh, your entire argument is in regards to works and faith, and you are asserting that once faith is exercised, then man is required to work to keep what God gives because one expresses faith in His Blood to Save from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. [And you claim I'm becoming more shrill?... while you are becoming more deceived!]
My caution to you was that you not limit God's temporal perspective to that which man functions under ... When God applies the Blood of Christ to you, NOTHING is stronger than that Blood, not even the old nature which is inherited from Adam and is bent upon sinning. God's Holy Spirit is in the exerciser of faith in His Blood, and the reality is TIMELESS in God's perspective else it would be functionally inadequate when Satan woos you to some sinful act after your initial exercising of Faith in His Grace [Moses paid a heavy price for striking the Rock again, rather than asking for the water of Life already verified]. The disciples being sent out to witness of the coming Kingdom were under Christ's Blood else the Spirit would not have been in them speaking through them ... and the application of His Blood to their 'doorposts and lentles' was done from God's temporal perspective, not man's.
[Apply that notion to your uncle's supposed profession and subsequent behavior and see what God saw of your uncle ... HINT: all of life is as a panorama before the Lord our God, thus we bow our knee and repent and God measures the heart, the repentence, the sincerity if you will, from His perspective of temporal knowledge for our entire life. I'll leave you to think on that 'perspective' ... it is God measuring the sincerity and He is not limited in temporal perspective, as if a 'what if' could defeat His purposes. The good deeds seen in a believer's life are the evidence of things not seen --evidence of God's Presence within the believer. These deeds are not a means to keep God's Blood applied to us, they are evidence that His Blood HAS BEEN applied to us. Likewise, bad fruit shows there is no Holy SPirit within, if we are called to judge the status of the person ... and we are most definitely called to do this, to discern of what spirit an one is if they come claiming to know Christ or using His name in their religious title.]
Your salvation is not your responsibility to obtain or to maintain, you only acknowledge your absolute need for His Saving Grace and He does the work ... you cannot defeat Satan in order to 'hold on to that which God gives to you based in the Blood of the Perfect One' ... your blood, sweat, and tears are no match for Satan's guile. If you keeping Salvation once God assigns Christ's righteousness to you was your responsibility, near none would be saved ... Satan is angelic in wisdom and power, you and I are mere mortals, but when His Blood covers us, atones for us, redeems us, our status is no longer temporally human in reality, it is in God's temporal perspective, which is timeless, eternal.
The will of God is that we accept His Blood to atone for our sinful nature (not our individual sins committed, our sinful nature). If the will of God were that you defeat Satan's 'efforts to cause you to fall away from what God grants', how powerful would be the Saving Blood of Christ?... Only as powerful as your efforts to keep it in your grasp. God forbid such arrogance, such an insult to His efficacious Blood!
Finally, you made the following assertions: These are thorny issues, of course, and not cleanly resolved; but I do not accept the thesis that, once we accept the Lord, our course is set. This is why the Lord counsels us, in Matthew 10:22, “...he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” In Matthew 10:22, Jesus was instructing His already 'Saved and guaranteed Apostles', the disciples who would be His Apostles (and Judas was amongst them but not going to be an Apostle on the final stage). Remember by Whose temporal perspective the disciples were measured as His Apostles to come --and not all at that time chosen to be sent out were; they had a devil amongst them for Judas was in this group, but remember Whose temporal perspective is working here.
Jesus was not --as you are trying to assert in the works v faith Salvation discussion-- cautioning them that they might lose eternal Salvation, if they didn't hold fast to it until the end of their lives. He was teaching those He was about to send out to proclaim the coming Kingdom, men who would be speaking hesitantly yet He tells them The Holy Spirit will give them voice! He was not teaching them once saved always saved (He taught that later, when Judas was no longer amongst them), He was teaching them to rely upon the Spirit while proclaiming the Gospel of Grace to come to the Jews (and Gentiles very quickly thereafter).
Can you not see that if it were up to us to hold fast to His Righteousness applied through His Blood (the Salvation they would have once His blood was shed on Calvary), that mere humans cannot possibly do this, especially since only by God's temporal perspective could this Perfect Blood be at that 'prior' time (prior to the cross, yet Jesus is speaking to them on what is to befall them once He sent to them the Holy Spirit to direct their words, etc.). From God's temporal perspective the blood was already applied to their Spirits so that His Spirit would be in them at this time when He was sending them out to proclaim His coming and His work to come at Calvary? The scene in Matthew 10:22 is the time when He sent them out in twos to witness of Him, and if someone refused to hear, the dust from the disciples' sandals was left for a witness of their village.
Let's read the passage through, searching for the timeframe in which Jesus is teaching these things to His disciples (all of them Jews at this time), because what He was sending them out to do, prior to the Cross, is the context in which He offers this teaching to them:
Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against [their] parents, and cause them to be put to death.
10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. [The disciples would not have been into every city of Israel before the Cross would happen!]
10:24 The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord.
10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more [shall they call] them of his household?
10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
10:27 What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops.
10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
10:38 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me.
10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
And that's my message to you this day, tantiboh.
He has answered the question. You didn’t get the memo on Titus 1:16 either, did you?
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Bummer, dude.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Christians are already saved without need of Joseph Smith or his prophecies.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
You are already freed through Christ. No need for Joseph Smith.
Romans 3:8 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Following the law (doing works) cannot save you . . .
etc. etc.
Follow it down and this verse contradicts Mormon ideas down the row . . . see also the end of Romans 9:
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
So faith, not special handshakes, works or any other shortcuts or things you can do will save you. Neither can Joseph Smith. Only Christ.
As far as 8:17 goes, heir is seen as an incredible promise of riches in the afterlife, an almost impossible riches, but it doesn’t make us a God.
You’re missing the point CUH.
We are not even talking about the same “works.” The Lords work is to love one another, feed the hungry, poor and widowed. The Lord’s work is about evangelizing. It is about Him and not ourselves.
What ARE the works that a Mormon must do to reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom?
Baptism?
Recieve the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by one with “proper” authority...?
Endowments?
Endure to the End?
Keep the commandments? All of them?
Here is a list of works Mormons must perform in order to be “worthy” to take part in the Temple “endowments” and “covenants.” You will be questioned by your Bishop or Stake President in order to be deemed “worthy.”
1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
5 Do you live the law of chastity?
6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
10 Are you a full-tithe payer?
11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?
12 Do you have financial or other oblgations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:
Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?
15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?
Wow! Thanks for listing all the “requirements” for being a worthy Mormon. I don’t think anyone would disagree that anyone living up to that standard is worthy of respect.
Daniel,
I have no problem with ANY Bible verse - you phrase that in a peculiar way. So the answer is no.
Unfortunately, you are reading into it that which isn’t there.
Sorry if I gave the impression I had a problem with any
verse.
best,
ampu
Gal. 1:
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
I find this verse particularly amusing for a Mormon to use in defense of his church. 1800 years after Christ a new gospel was made up by a huckster in New York. He slept with the wives of his followers, lied to his congregation about the adultery and polygamy, and 170 years later the followers of Smith quote Galatians 1:6 to defend their “Johnny come lately” religion not even realizing that theirs is “another gospel.”
You may be worthy of respect. BUT you are no more worthy of redemption than any Budhist, Taoist, or Ba’hai.
Works to glorify yourselves and earn exaltation are filthy, dirty rags. These works denigrate the grace of God through the atonement of Jesus Christ. You are an example of thinking you are better than everyone else and worthy of “respect.”
Bah, the Pharasees too thought they kept the commandments perfectly. You deny the existence of your own sinful nature, you deny the crucifixion and atonement of Christ
Do we really want someone THIS arrogant to serve as our POTUS.
.... reminds me a bit of the prayer of the Pharisee:
Luke 18:9-14 9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10”Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13”But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14”I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
I didn’t mean for this post to sound as an attack on you personally. The word “you” in my post refers to the generic and plural word “you” (as in anyone who thinks they deserve “respect.”)
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