Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Soldiers Want a Bigger Bang
Defensetech.org ^ | 5/30/2007 | Edited by Christian Lowe

Posted on 05/30/2007 7:12:47 AM PDT by Sergio

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-66 next last
To: Little Ray
Because the object of shooting an enemy (in warfare) isn’t to kill target, but to wound it.

I wonder who started this myth. I've heard it so many times over the past 17 years from differing sources. This supposed rationale will never die, it seems.

The object of shooting any assailant is to effectively stop them. The same holds true for self-defense. Stop, not necessarily kill, although in war I'll take the stop/kill.

The 5.56Nato was desirable because a soldier could handle a weapon so chambered when the selector switch is set to full-auto, which was untrue for the M14 (7.62Nato) which tended to walk-away. Also some of the first reported terminal ballistics were impressive--a barely stablized 55gr projectile in a 1/14 rate-of-twist barrel--ripping limbs off. We messed this up by improving the rifles "long range" performance by going to a 1/12 and then subsequently to a heavier/longer projectile(62gr M855/SS109) in a 1;/7 twist to improve penetration on helmets at 300 meters. After 75 yards the bullet became a drill losing its "explosive" terminal performance. (see Gabriel Suarez' "Tactical Rifle")

One can never carry too much ammo, even 5.56 Nato. But can you carry 2x or 3x's as much 5.56Nato to achieve the same results of the 7.62Nato? No. And only hits count. For stopping effectiveness we should adopt a projectile with a longer/heavier softnose design OR neck the existing case up to 6mm (80/85/90 gr) which are adequate for smaller spieces of deer and presumably two-legged game.

The 6.8SPC effort seems the right way to go, but it requires more mods to the underlying platform: new upper/barrel, new follower, new magazines. With the 6mm upgrade, only new barrel is needed. Of course this is a nighmare waiting to happen: chambering 6mm projectiles in your 5.56 chamber. It probably wont go into battery and will create weapon-neutralizing jam.

21 posted on 05/30/2007 7:59:27 AM PDT by nonsporting
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Sergio

They need to change to the 6.8SPC caliber round like theyve been playing with forever...its had some devastating results against the Talibanskis in Afghanistan.


22 posted on 05/30/2007 7:59:41 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Master of Sinanju (emeritus))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gideon Reader

Let them adopt the new HK 45 auto. It would seem that it would fill the requests of everyone.


23 posted on 05/30/2007 8:03:48 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Master of Sinanju (emeritus))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: wastedyears
.45 NOT .40.

40 S&W is too finicky for a combat round.

H&K 45 (new, will be released this summer), SIG P220, Taurus 24/7-OSS and other .45’s designed for the SOCOM/JCP requirement are hitting the market this year.

24 posted on 05/30/2007 8:04:08 AM PDT by fireforeffect (A kind word and a 2x4, gets you more than just a kind word.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: LIConFem

DelFatti Ankle Holster. :~)


25 posted on 05/30/2007 8:06:13 AM PDT by Gideon Reader (DEMOCRATS: Not quite American, and proud of it! Palestinians are,...well Palestinian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Sergio

.338 Lapua.


26 posted on 05/30/2007 8:06:48 AM PDT by Lazamataz (JOIN THE NRA: https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: nonsporting

Just a question ... since stopping power is in part a function of energy delivered to the target, is it possible to get better results by just creating a heavier 5.56 round?


27 posted on 05/30/2007 8:06:53 AM PDT by r9etb
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: fireforeffect

The H&K .45 Tactical? I saw that on their US website.

CT law states I don’t have to own a weapon to get a permit to own one, or even for a CC.

I just wish firearms weren’t so darn expensive. At that I wouldn’t want a 9mm, due to stories of little stopping power. Mark 23 MOD 0 is 12-round .45 ACP. I know H&K makes a .40 with 12 rounds. That would be a nice little friend to have when it gets hot.


28 posted on 05/30/2007 8:17:39 AM PDT by wastedyears ( I deleted my tagline by accident =()
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: chuckles
The .45 is the best, but the 230FMJ is too heavy. You can actually watch it fall as you shoot it. Course, if you are shooting farther than 50 feet or so, why are you using a pistola anyway?

Exactly. But that's just one more reason why someone shooting a .45 ACP should stick to a proven manstopper - the heavy and slow 230 grainer. (IMO)

It's pretty well established that felt recoil out of a modern, non-1911, service pistol will be manageable for most anyone in uniform.

As far as rifles go, a gas-piston AR chambered in 6.8 SPC is just what the doctor ordered. However, politics and the inertia of military logistics will probably render this entire conversation pointless.

29 posted on 05/30/2007 8:17:51 AM PDT by AngryJawa ({IDPA, NRA} GO HUNTER '08)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: nonsporting
Dunno if its a myth or not, but I’ve been hearing it for nearly 30 years... A living, incapacitated soldier uses up more resources than a dead one.

I don’t know if “softnose” ammo is a good idea, given the effectiveness of modern body armor, or if it would pass muster with the Geneva Convention. The rest I agree with.

30 posted on 05/30/2007 8:19:59 AM PDT by Little Ray (Rudy Guiliani: If his wives can't trust him, why should we?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Armedanddangerous
Should I assume that you mean the HK416 in .556X45??
That should do the trick. It has been field tested and is VERY much liked by those who know, i.e. SEALS & DELTA.

For a handgun there is **ZERO** wrong with the 1911 Government Model in .45acp.

31 posted on 05/30/2007 8:20:13 AM PDT by Gideon Reader (DEMOCRATS: Not quite American, and proud of it! Palestinians are,...well,... Palestinian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: gcruse

Some people could put 3 rounds in somebody’s head pretty quickly in SOCOM: Combined Assault, though I think the SEAL player’s favorite is the Sig P226. I know it’s my pistol of choice when I play.


32 posted on 05/30/2007 8:22:12 AM PDT by wastedyears ( I deleted my tagline by accident =()
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Little Ray
NO! A wounded soldier ties up a number of OUR soldiers.

The opposition leaves their own bleeding on the ground for US to take care of, or puts a round in their heads if they suspect that leaving one of their own is a danger to their opsec

33 posted on 05/30/2007 8:23:18 AM PDT by Gideon Reader (DEMOCRATS: Not quite American, and proud of it! Palestinians are,...well,... Palestinian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Gideon Reader

No

Theres a new HK 45 auto out there, based loosely on the 1911, but with a polymer frame.

I DO think they ought to adopt the 416...but in 6.8 caliber.

Do a google search on the new HK 45, it’s really cool, and Im a dyed in the wool 1911 man.


34 posted on 05/30/2007 8:24:17 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Master of Sinanju (emeritus))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: umgud

Dumb comment.


35 posted on 05/30/2007 8:24:33 AM PDT by Gideon Reader (DEMOCRATS: Not quite American, and proud of it! Palestinians are,...well,... Palestinian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: fireforeffect

The coast guard just adopted the Sig 226 with the DAK trigger in 40 cal.


36 posted on 05/30/2007 8:25:17 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Master of Sinanju (emeritus))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: wastedyears
For GOD’s sake. War is NOT a EFF’ing video game.
Shooting at a live person trying to make them change from that status, is not for fun!!
Damn.
Sorry, but children make me lose my equanimity on occasion.
37 posted on 05/30/2007 8:30:23 AM PDT by Gideon Reader (DEMOCRATS: Not quite American, and proud of it! Palestinians are,...well,... Palestinian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Armedanddangerous

Poor Coasties.

Not the SIG, the .40.


38 posted on 05/30/2007 8:36:11 AM PDT by fireforeffect (A kind word and a 2x4, gets you more than just a kind word.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Graycliff

I wondered when someone would mention the M14. With hundreds of thousands still in inventory it shouldn’t be a problem other than the ammo and repair logistics.


39 posted on 05/30/2007 8:37:11 AM PDT by Wu (Excuse me while I kiss the sky......)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: LIConFem
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
40 posted on 05/30/2007 8:43:49 AM PDT by Dick Vomer (liberals suck....... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.,)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-66 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson