Soldiers Want a Bigger Bang

Defensetech.org ^ | 5/30/2007 | Edited by Christian Lowe

[Sergio]

I have always wondered why we decided on a "varmit" round for targets in the "white tail" deer weight range. Seems like something in the 30.30 class would be more appropriate.

[wastedyears]

I don’t think H&K would mind a huge contract to manufacture millions of .40cal pistols for the military.

Probably the USP, USP Compact (which is what I would choose), or a tactical something.

[r9etb]

I have always wondered why we decided on a "varmit" round for targets in the "white tail" deer weight range. Seems like something in the 30.30 class would be more appropriate.

I think the rationale was put in terms of weight and number of rounds carried. The lesson from Vietnam was that most rounds aren't even aimed -- it was several thousand rounds expended for each person hit. Also, the thinking at the time was that fighting was done at relatively close range, so the heavier bullet (and its longer range) was not necessary.

[NY.SS-Bar9]

I’m thinking an HK 416 in 6.5mm and a 1911 style .45 screw NATO interchangeability.

[GOP_Party_Animal]

I think the full metal jacket/varmit round was a good concept for fighting against national armies. Against people who see it as their obligation to die trying to kill with their last breath, that concept is outdated.

[real saxophonist]

.30 calibre is good, but the .30-30 is too short a range.

Having said that, I was happy with my M16A2 Service Rifle, 6137326, on Parris Island in 1989. Shot Expert. Of course, I never had to use her in an antipersonnel situation.

I agree about the Beretta. That thing's just way too big for most people, and the mandated hardball ammo is ineffective. When I was in the Corps, the MPs still carried 1911s.

[Thrusher]

AK-47. The very best there is. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every mother------ in the room, accept no substitutes.

[2banana]

OK - repeat after me. Women can not fire anything with bigger stopping power. I don’t care what the logic is to your argument - you can’t get around this PC fact...

[LIConFem]

If they can make one of these light enough, I think the soldiers would be satisfied.

[Little Ray]

Because the object of shooting an enemy (in warfare) isn’t to kill target, but to wound it. A wounded soldier is supposed to tie up 4-5 other soldiers, medics, etc.
Doesn’t work when dealing with terrorists, of course. They don’t have the same support requirements real armies do.
Also, the 7.62mm NATO is uncomfortable for some smaller soldiers. And you can carry more ammo.

[JamesP81]

Seems like something in the 30.30 class would be more appropriate.

30-30 is too low on velocity and might have trouble punching through body armor. Something in the 6.5mm range would probably be good; more stopping power than a .223 but still lighter than .308 or .30-06. Of course, I'm quite fond of the 6.5mm Swedish Mauser, so I might be biased, but it seems to me that a medium sized rifle shooting a similar cartridge might be just the ticket.

9mm is not a good handgun round for combat and never has been. The 1911 should've never been retired. As for submachine guns, the old M3 grease gun probably works as well modern submachine guns at a fraction of the cost.

[antiRepublicrat]

I have always wondered why we decided on a "varmit" round for targets in the "white tail" deer weight range.

Lighter, can carry more rounds. Of course we decided this when the M16 did full auto, so our soldiers needed more rounds. I say one direction or the other: Go totally light weight with the ability to reliably put 10 rounds in the target in less than a heartbeat as in the P-90, or give the soldiers fewer, but much bigger, rounds that will take down anybody with one shot.

[umgud]

How about a 10mm? Of course, it would be too powerful for FBI agents, but it would sure kick ass in Iraq.

[gcruse]

I’ve noticed the lack of 9mm knockdown power in video games. It’s a problem. ;)

[skyman]

"The lesson from Vietnam was that most rounds aren't even aimed -- it was several thousand rounds expended for each person hit."

According to a book on snipers that I've read:
average bullets fired by US solders per kill
WWII -25,000
Korea-50,000
Viet Nam-200,000
Snipers-1.3

I think our military is much better trained than Viet Nam so there is less tendancy to "spray and pray" today

[gcruse]

I never heard that before. It’s not very comforting.

[TLI]

As for submachine guns, the old M3 grease gun probably works as well modern submachine guns at a fraction of the cost.

If ya like the M3 you would LOVE the S&W76. With a few updates to the basic design such as a modern trigger group (smaller) and running the mag through the handgrip for more barrel length / shorter overall length plus chamber it to .40 cal instead of 9mm you would not be able to get them out of the troops hands.

[Graycliff]

Helped sponsor a hog hunt, for the “Wounded Warriors” last year. My group was 5 men who had been wounded in Afghanistan and Iraq. While sitting around the camp fire one night discussing combat rifles, calibers and cold beer, i asked them what would be their rifle of choice. Their reply was unanimous, the M-14. The inability of the 5.56 to penetrate even the thinnest of mud or brick walls was the reason. One commented he could make his own door with a 7.62.

[chuckles]

They need the .308 for rifle and a .45 with a 185grn-200grn bullet. The .308 is just the best I don't care how heavy the ammo is. The .45 is the best, but the 230FMJ is too heavy. You can actually watch it fall as you shoot it. Course, if you are shooting farther than 50 feet or so, why are you using a pistola anyway? The 200grn bullet is better than a .40 cal, IMHO, and goes farther and flatter. My fav handload is a 185HP, but the Geneva convention says NO to HP's. If it wasn't a HP, I don't know if it could remain 185grn.

I've also wondered if the .44 Desert Eagle could be considered for widespread use. Prolly too expensive, but it would be an attention getter. Even the .357 is mo better than a 9mm. Frankly I'd rather have a .38 than 9mm. You can tell I don't have much respect for pop guns in war.

[Gideon Reader]

We were accomodating the Europeans and NATO.
Smarter thing at thatpoint in time would have to used a weapon that would accept ammo of the Wasaw Pact/Soviets.
We are NOT noted for doing smart things.