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Giuliani"s Unwelcome Birthday Guests
The New York Observer ^ | 5/29/07 | Azi Paybarah

Posted on 05/29/2007 3:13:05 PM PDT by SUSSA

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To: TommyDale; SJackson
>>"In the undesired event that it's Hillary vs Giuliani, there will be a recognizable difference between the parties."

That is quite arguable.

I was going to ask for an enumeration of the differences.

161 posted on 05/30/2007 2:22:59 PM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: P-40
Good points...but it is still not too late for some 'voice from the recent past' to make an appearance. But as to who that might be.....I don't know. Newt? No. Powell? Maybe.

Within the party, yes. Newt or Thompson certainly, though hopefully not both. It's rumored that Obama's canidacy and his SoS service may have eased Powell's wife's fears of assassination. He could probably be VP in a heartbeat.

162 posted on 05/30/2007 2:27:55 PM PDT by SJackson (Be careful -- with quotations, you can damn anything, Andre Malraux)
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To: calcowgirl
I was going to ask for an enumeration of the differences.

If it comes down to Hillary/Obama vs Giuliana then convincing you there's a difference might be relevant, till then it's not, I accept you belief that they're essentially the same on most issues.

163 posted on 05/30/2007 2:29:50 PM PDT by SJackson (Be careful -- with quotations, you can damn anything, Andre Malraux)
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To: SJackson

I believe Rudy and Hillary are the same on many, many issues (the vast majority).

I have also seen the damage that a liberal Republican can do in a leadership spot, where their own party is unwilling to challenge their liberal programs and lets them off the hook. (Exhibit 1: Schwarzenegger).

I prefer to have my liberal enemies on the other side of the aisle where I can fight them head on, not be stabbed in the back by one of “my own” and/or silenced into submission. When the quarterback is throwing the ball to the other team, it’s kind of hard to advance the ball to your own goal.


164 posted on 05/30/2007 2:34:57 PM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: TommyDale

Yes. With law enforcement unions, it’s basically about money. I don’t listen to them, even if they’re NY firefighters.


165 posted on 05/30/2007 2:43:56 PM PDT by California Patriot ("That's not Charley the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: calcowgirl

You’re getting the unions’ side of the story. I wouldn’t trust them worth a damn. How carefully have you “researched” this? In my experience, “research” is a much-overused word when people are arguing with each other. The person who uses it is often bluffing.

I never suggested that all criticism “from a union member” or a Democrat is necessarily wrong. I would suggest that most criticism from union LEADERS is likely to be wrong.

I wonder if the union that endorsed Bush is the one that’s taking the lead here, or if they’re just going along. And how do you know that their stated beefs are their real issues?


166 posted on 05/30/2007 2:47:43 PM PDT by California Patriot ("That's not Charley the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: California Patriot

Being from Silicon Valley and now North Carolina at RTP, I am totally opposed to unions. But I do believe law enforcement and public safety personnel should be paid a livable wage. If you don’t, you end up with a police force like Durham, NC.


167 posted on 05/30/2007 2:55:15 PM PDT by TommyDale (More Americans are killed each day in the U.S. by abortion than were killed on 9/11 !)
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To: TommyDale

I don’t think there are many in law enforcement who aren’t paid a “livable wage.” Especially in big cities. Even if they aren’t, and even if a public official can be held responsible for that, I wouldn’t consider it a major negative in deciding whether to support him for public office. Public employees of all kinds (except perhaps the Border Patrol) have little problem getting politicians on their side. The taxpayer, on the other hand, is badly underrepresented.


168 posted on 05/30/2007 2:57:27 PM PDT by California Patriot ("That's not Charley the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: California Patriot

I think when history is written, it will not be as nice to Rudy Giuliani as some would expect. His negligence with WTC 7 is inexcusable. He should take responsibility for that failure, not try to shift it to someone else.


169 posted on 05/30/2007 3:00:46 PM PDT by TommyDale (More Americans are killed each day in the U.S. by abortion than were killed on 9/11 !)
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To: California Patriot

Battalion Chief Jim Riches (above the fire helmet that was found next to his son, Jimmy, Jr.'s remains on March 25, 2002 at Ground Zero) doesn't think the death of his son and other firefighters because of Rudy's management failures are "trivial and mean-spirited reasons" for getting the truth out about Rudy.

I'd suggest you go to the Ground Zero Museum before you call the heroes of 9-11 mean-spirited or other names.

170 posted on 05/30/2007 3:07:14 PM PDT by SUSSA
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To: California Patriot
You’re getting the unions’ side of the story....

Please see #5.

171 posted on 05/30/2007 3:26:46 PM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: SUSSA

So, because a guy’s son died in 9-11, he must be right?
Can’t you do better than this?

Look, I didn’t call the firefighters in general “mean-spirited” or anything else. And even if some 9-11 heroes are part of this union attack on Rudy, it’s still possible that they’re mean-spirited. Even heroes can be. And even if Rudy isn’t a hero, it doesn’t mean that their criticisms of him are justified, let alone appropriately expressed.


172 posted on 05/30/2007 3:30:51 PM PDT by California Patriot ("That's not Charley the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: California Patriot

Battalion Chief Jim Riches was there saving lives on 9-11. As a battalion chief he knows waht went wrong. It isn’t something he read about in a book or in the paper.

His son and many of his fellow firefighters are dead because of Rudy’s management and judgement failures. It’s not mean-spirited to point to those failures in a man who is trying to be president. The public should know about Rudy’s judgement and management ability.

Just because a union that backed Rudy twice, and backed Bush twice, is helping get the message out doesn’t mean the message is wrong, or that they are all liberals.


173 posted on 05/30/2007 3:44:44 PM PDT by SUSSA
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To: California Patriot
How carefully have you “researched” this?

The issue of what was and what was not done to prepare New York City for 9/11 has been researched more than most any other topic in modern times. The conclusions are pretty much always the same.
174 posted on 05/30/2007 4:07:22 PM PDT by P-40 (Al Qaeda was working in Iraq. They were just undocumented.)
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To: SUSSA

That’s true. It’s equally true that just because a guy saved lives on 9-11 doesn’t mean he knows enough to trash Rudy. He may or may not.


175 posted on 05/30/2007 4:19:30 PM PDT by California Patriot ("That's not Charley the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: P-40

Whatever the truth of this situation may be, I’m MUCH more interested in what Rudy learned from 9-11 and how he led the city after it happened. If we exclude people from the presidency just because they made a few mistakes, even big ones, we’ll have no choices at all.


176 posted on 05/30/2007 4:21:37 PM PDT by California Patriot ("That's not Charley the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: California Patriot

Were it not for the 1993 attacks I would agree with you at least somewhat. But given that those attacks occurred and many sane voices at the time were giving Rudy plenty of reason to pause and think about what he was doing, he chose to go ahead with his plans that even before 9/11 seemed foolish. If he did not try and pass himself off as a ‘hero’ I’d be more inclined to let it pass. As it stands, he disgusts me.


177 posted on 05/30/2007 4:25:26 PM PDT by P-40 (Al Qaeda was working in Iraq. They were just undocumented.)
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To: P-40

OK. It’s true that he had the wake-up call in ‘93.


178 posted on 05/30/2007 4:28:11 PM PDT by California Patriot ("That's not Charley the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: California Patriot

Mr Riches didn’t become Battalion Chief by not knowing how to fight fires and without knowing a cluster-@#$# when he sees one.

I think I’ll take his word over Oprah’s and Rudy’s about what went on.

It remains to be seen if the American people will believe Rudy and his spin machine or the firefighters who were there on 9-11. Want to bet against them believing the firefighters?


179 posted on 05/30/2007 4:30:41 PM PDT by SUSSA
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To: California Patriot

Yup, he got the call...he just did not take it.


180 posted on 05/30/2007 4:30:41 PM PDT by P-40 (Al Qaeda was working in Iraq. They were just undocumented.)
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