Posted on 03/05/2007 9:16:23 AM PST by pissant
I don't think you understand my method. Here.
By testimony, Mendoza places himself at the intersection of Rawls and Island road looking at the convoy arrayed out on Jess Harris. He sees Davila just about to cross Wingo reserve road onto the dirt road part of Jess Harris. Okay, we already know that the dirt portion is 1 mile assuming that Mr. Loya's odometer is correct. That is 5280 feet that everyone has to travel if they go down the dirt road. Mendoza does that and I assume he travels that distance using the speed that Juarez and Vasquez would use if they were not so intent on capturing the van, 30 MPH. That would take 2 minutes to traverse the dirt road. But to get to the dirt road Mendoza must go the distance from Rawls and Island to Jess Harris and Wingo. When pressed, he stated he was about a half mile from the convoy. Well, that would be from his position, Rawls and Island, to the nearest part of the convoy and not to the start of the dirt. I measured the distance, using dividers, from Rawls and Island to the start of the dirt road. He would have continued on Island until he hit Jess Harris then made the turn to go down Jess Harris. That distance was one mile. As you pointed out, he would have travelled that distance at 60 MPH, except for the turns required. He would have completed that mile in one minute. Thus he would have gone the whole distance, 2 miles, in 3 minutes(180 seconds). That is an average speed of 40 MPH (40 miles in 60 minutes). He ends up with a delta of 100 seconds from Davila because Davila is going faster down the dirt road to get away.
You're right. I misread your calculations.
You show Mendoza 55 seconds (180-125) behind Vasquez,
and 57.27 seconds (180-122.73) behind Juarez.
That is the same 1 minute that I had estimated.
We're in synch.
I don't think the defense did a great job presenting it, but I can easily get to that threshold, especially for Ramos. He hears gun shots, runs over the levee, sees his fellow agent on the ground, thinks he has been shot, runs after OAD, sees OAD turn toward him pointing what he "absolutely 100 percent" believed was a gun in his hand. He fired once.
You're saying he should have waited to make sure? Are Agents now supposed to shoot only when shot at? That's tough duty! Would you take the job?
3 Q. Okay. And let me back up just a second. You said you 4 heard gunshots when you were in the ditch. Did you hear 5 anymore gunshots after you got out of the ditch? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay. He was on the floor. What do you mean? 8 A. Well, he wasn't standing. . . 17 Q. Okay. What did you think, at that point in time, based on 18 everything you'd seen and heard, and your experience working 19 there? What did you think when you see him? 20 A. I thought he had been shot, that he had been injured. . . 5 A. That's what I saw. 6 Q. Okay. Are you absolutely sure that he had a gun in his 7 hand? 8 A. On that day, at that time, I believe so. 9 Q. Okay. Were you absolutely 100 percent sure? 10 A. At that time, I was.
Well, Compean had a fraction of a second to decide what to do when Davila turned and pointed at him. He thought he saw a gun and then he reacted, remember his gun was holstered. Ramos, after hearing shots, decided not to bring bare hands into a gunfight and had his weapon ready as he crested the levee. As he crested the levee he saw Compean, not standing, and reacting to that, sought the "assailant". He saw him running, yelled stop and upon seeing the "assailant" do essentially the same thing that Compean described, fired once, assessed, did not see the target again until the target was in Mexico. This Ramos did in the 4 or so seconds he had.
I was just addressing Ramos because I think the scenario is much more clear.
I did not mean to imply that the elements were not also present in Compean's case.
Davila Ramos Juarez Vasquez Mendoza 0 60 120 220 5280 45 44.9 44 43.5 50.9 5280 5280 5280 5280 5280 66.00 65.85 64.53 63.80 74.65 80.00 81.09 83.68 86.21 141.45 0 1.09 3.68 6.21 61.45
Here is a calculation that puts all of the elements of each testimony together. Mendoza's position is the most unclear since it requires the biggest assumptions about his rate of travel.
Wind speed is known to be well above the value of 8 MPH that I used to determine the trail. At a 30 degree angle, the angle that Jess Harris has to due East, the crosswind will clear the road in 2.5 seconds. That is the trail required. Ramos maintains visual contact with Davila and Davila sees the lights, so Ramos is closer than 2.5 seconds. From my experience and the testimony of Chris Sanchez that you noted, I used 45 MPH as the speed of the pacesetter, Davila. I adjusted Ramos avg speed fractionally downward to account for reaction time. I then adjusted the avg speeds of Juarez and Vasquez to maintain at least a 2.5 pad between them and the vehicle to their front. Vasquez said he had to slow down for the dust and when he arrived the dust was "clearing" so he was within the 2.5 second window.
I placed Mendoza the mile behind and assumed he travelled the speed limit to reach the dirt road, then he took as long as Juarez to complete the journey. If he only went 30 MPH on the dirt road it would add 39 seconds to his time. What this tells me is that everyone witnessing the events at the scene prior to the last shot arrived at the scene within 7 seconds, and Ramos is telling the truth. Davila does see two or three agents. Vasquez is lying. The last shot occurred within one or two minutes of the arrival of Davila at the scene.
Yep. Or, to say it another way, the vehicles would only need be 2.5 seconds apart (165 feet) to be unobstructed by dust. 2.5 seconds behind each other is actually more conservative (i.e. further) than the car-length estimates given in testimony by Ramos, Juarez, and Mendoza. Vasquez, based on his story, seems to have gotten lost in a time-warp somewhere on that lonely dirt road.
Given that the events up to the point I described were what they were, (chase, hearing shots, seeing JC down and believing injured, seeing gun), what should Ramos have done?
He saw OAD pointing a gun at him.
It seems you are saying Ramos should have just stood there and waited.
I find that conclusion foolish--not to mention death-provoking.
I believe the defense would have prevailed if:
1) The prosecution had not sponsored witnesses that perjured themselves
and
2) The prosecution had honestly presented the case
...or some combination thereof.
Defense testimony could have been stronger, but with all of the smoke and mirrors created by the prosecution,
I don't know if it would have been enough.
Thak you, I will respond after I get back from dinner.
I rest my case.
It's easy to sit and second guess what someone could have done, or should have done. I've been reading a bunch of stuff on police shootings and various studies. The more I read, the more I am supportive of their actions that day. This wasn't a case of "vigilantes."
For those wanting them to have a better story, here are some interesting stats:
(snip)
In a study conducted by Dr. Alexis Artwohl (author of Deadly Force Encounters) between the years of 1994-1999, she interviewed 157 police officers that were involved in deadly force shootings. Dr Artwohl’s study revealed the following results specific to “perception” issues:
· 84% experienced diminished sound (auditory exclusion)
· 79% experienced tunnel vision (peripheral narrowing)
· 74% experienced “automatic pilot” with little or no conscious thought
· 71% experienced visual clarity
· 62% experienced slow motion time
· 52% experienced memory loss for part of the event
· 46% experienced memory loss for some of their own behavior
· 39% experienced dissociation; sense of detachment or unreality
· 26% experienced intrusive distracting thoughts
· 21% experienced saw, heard, or experienced memory distortion
· 17% experienced fast motion time
· 07% experienced temporary paralysis
And come up with ridiculous suggestions such as yelling questions from the confines of a ditch to a person who is where? Gunshots, well they do sound different than rifle fire, but some people mistake them for firecrackers. So, I suppose that Ramos might have shouted out, "Who is illegally setting off fireworks?" But, of course, Compean is not the only one armed, since Ramos heard others arriving, so he should have shouted, "Who's shooting?", to anyone within earshot. Or he could have ignored them like Juarez and Vasquez did and pawn the shots off on hunters or like.
But what he actually did, was what any self-respecting officer of the law would do. He answered the call and ran towards what all evidence showed to him was the source of the gunfire he heard. And he did so correctly with arms drawn.
Vasquez testifies that couldn't see anything when they hit the dirt road (he is within 2.5 seconds of Juarez). He arrives and must wait until the dust clears before he can see. Well, whose dust is that? It must be Juarez's since he was immediately before him in the convoy. Oh, wait, it could be his own dust blowing straight down the road obscuring the view. Well, not only is the wind at angle, but everybody's dust would have done that, and nobody would have seen anything because of all the dust. So, it must have been Juarez's dust. Well, upon the dust clearing he sees Juarez looking south and standing at the edge of the ditch, 5 feet from the driver's door of Davila's van. You have seen the picture of the van. As Vasquez opens his door he hears multiple gunshots. This is definitely at least six. He is specifically asked by Kanof not to guess, but to testify as to what multiple means to him. He answers, "more than five". He hears the shots and looks around and sees nothing.
He sees Juarez looking south then Juarez walks away from the van. Now we know the setup there, the van is hanging over the edge of the ditch with its rear facing down Jess Harris. That direction is directly towards Vasquez. Parallel to the van and no more than the width of the road away is Juarez's vehicle. It is slightly removed from the ditch. Well, Vasquez testifes that Juarez walks to the east away from the van. East and away from the van is towards Juarez's vehicle and towards the field to the southeast of Jess Harris. Where the heck is Juarez headed? In any case, Vasquez asked Juarez, "Hey, what happened" as Juarez travelled east. Juarez ignores Vasquez and continues east. Vasquez has evidently been travelling down the road towards the van because he arrives at the driver side van door, looks inside, sees a cell phone attached to a charger and retrieves it. Now this is a really strange part. Kanof interrupts Vasquez when he mentions looking inside the van and seeing the cell phone. She then asks Vasquez this, "In order to talk to Agent Juarez, you had to walk right by the driver's side of the van, correct?... And you saw a cell phone?...Attached to a cigarette lighter, did you say?" Well, we know the inside was hidden by curtains except for the windshield and the driver and passenger side windows. Moreover, with Juarez going east, and Vasquez advancing southwest down Jess Harris, Vasquez did not have to go near the van despite the "testimony" of Kanof. It becomes even more bizarre, since the picture of the van clearly shows the driver door at the very edge of the ditch. It is a very strange path indeed that Vasquez must follow to talk to the "departing" Juarez.
Well, Vasquez starts examining the cell phone, which we will note is after completely disregarding at least 6 gunshots. Mysteriously, at that point, Juarez warps to Vasquez's position and takes the phone from Vasquez who then asks "Hey, where are these guys?" Juarez, apparently distracted, answers "They're at the vega, chasing this guy." Remember this is the testimony of Vasquez, the pure (according to Kanof). First, of all, at this point in the event Juarez has no idea where Ramos is, since he has testified he did not see Ramos until Ramos was coming back from the south side of the levee. Second, Vasquez, in rapid succession, transforms what Juarez stated into, "He's chasing these guys down" and "They're at the vega chasing these guys down." Well, you can look for yourself and try to figure out what is going on but it is evident to me that Vasquez is lying. Either Juarez, ignores two different questions or he ignores one question but it is worded completely differently, "What" versus "Where", on 3 pages of his testimony, 19, 20, and 21.
Confused? Well, we haven't got to the shotgun yet. Vasquez is still looking at the cell phone when Juarez points out the shotgun. Say what? ( Juarez is supposedly wandering off to the east ) Vasquez is still looking at the cell phone. But the same non-responsive Juarez now points out a shotgun. And where is that shotgun? It is on the levee slope, not in the ditch which comes later after prompting by Kanof. "On the slope between the drainage canal and the levee."
That's enough, but one can establish these following things are testified to by Vasquez. Whether or not they can be believed is subject to corroboration by other than Davila and Juarez. These occurred while he was at the scene.
He did see Compean's vehicle on the levee prior to asking "Where are these guys" He did not see Compean shooting from the levee and he should have if Juarez could see Compean. He did not see Ramos until Ramos returned. He was in dust as he came down the dirt road. The dust cleared as he stopped at the scene. He heard at least 6 shots. He saw the shotgun on the levee slope. He saw the shotgun in the ditch.
Now the gate scene. When asked by Vasquez, "How many rounds did you fire?", casings magically appeared out of nowhere into Compean's hand. Nine of them. Take nine grapes and hold them in your hand. Well, not only did Compean produce 9 casings out of thin air, he counted them without dropping one. Vasquez asked again, "How many rounds did you fire?" He held them in his teeth or somewhere, while he pulled out an empty magazine from his magazine pouch, so that he could now count the missing bullets, learning that empty casings do not necessarily add up to shots fired. OOPs, maybe the magazine wasn't empty so that he needed to view the gauge on it to see how many bullets remained. Or it might have been one of the new-fangled clear plastic magazines. In any case, he replaces the magazine, because in his next spectacular act he must remove the magazine from a loaded and ready Beretta so that he can do the same thing to that magazine. He then counts the remaining bullets in that magazine. And amazingly comes up with "I'm probably missing five, about five rounds." as the answer to "How many rounds did you fire?"
That fairy-tale was told by "Hans-Christian" Vasquez.
Compean's testimony is more likely the truth. As they talked vehicle to vehicle( Compean did that earlier in the day with Mendoza but on the radio ), Compean decided to reload the ejected magazine. He had a full magazine in his Beretta so he had no reason to get to his pistol for any counting. Although Compean doesn't get into how he determines how many shots he fired, 10 or 11, the sure way you count the bullets remaining in a magazine is by ejecting the bullets with your thumb and counting them. You can then determine how many are missing. I believe Compean actually shot nine times at Davila. His "empty" magazine had 2 bullets remaining. To this question from Kanof, "And did he remove the one from the gun to count how many remaining bullets he had?", Vasquez replies, "Both of them." (Line 24 page 37, Vasquez) I think Vasquez is referring to how many bullets remained in the magazine, the one Compean is reloading in the vehicle.
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