Posted on 02/15/2007 10:57:59 PM PST by Muentzer2005
"Well, even here on FR is a limitation to free speech. I would never say "F**K OFF" to anyone but posts including such statements will be deleted as a personal offence.
The German legislative concluded denying of the Holocaust as an offence to the Holocaust survivors or as an offence to the one slaughtered. To protect survivors or surviving dependents no individual has to put it on trail it is commission for attorneys of the state to do it for them."
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I'm glad you can express yourself without using profanity. On the other hand, as a private site, the moderators can delete anything they want to.
And I can see why, although in a misguided way, the Germans want to protect the victims of the Holocaust from deniers. Perhaps the U.S. should make a law that puts any 9/11 deniers into jail, especially the ones that say that no airplanes were involved, and that those passengers are actually living in a remote complex in Colorado?
Or maybe we should should keep it the way it is. At least it adds more comic relief to the liberal protest rallys whenever a 9/11Truth.org sign marches past.
"Do I think those who defend Holocaust deniers might be Holocaust deniers? They may be in some cases."
OK, you wrote "in some cases". I agree with you. It comes with the territory.
The other day on a bus in Boston there was a guy standing with a "9-11 truth" poster. With stuff like "there was no plane that hit the pentagon".
This guy walked up to him and asked him "do you know where the passengers of flight 77 are?" "Why don't you tell their families?" "I'm sure they want to hear from you."
I'll never forget it. Someone looked at a lunatic in public, confronted his madness, and said "here's a lunatic!"
It made my day.
And then they came for the Freepers.
And then they came for the gun owners.
Don't think they won't.
Every new generation is a blank slate that must be educated all over again.
You and I are of the generation that has studied the sum of the historical facts and have convinced ourselves of what really happened and can defend our position.
However, once new generations are told, "This is so because we say so and you are not even allowed to question what we say or you will be jailed", that passes into the realm of dogma which threatens the credibility for future generations.
For example, was the beginning of the "The Diary of Anne Franke" actually written by a 13 year old girl? (That's a trick question that requires some research in order to arrive at the correct answer.)
To criminalize such questions casts doubts on the authenticity of the entire work in the minds of future generations and defeats the work itself.
Those questions aren´t criminal. But saying "Did the Holocaust happen at all, or have we all been betrayed by our filthy government and the Jewish lobby?" surely is.
Our commitment to free speech is tested at its outrageous and offensive outer margins; a popular message, pretty much by definition, needs no protection. It can take care of itself.
Ernst Zundel was a publisher in Canada over 30 years ago. He's been retired for years. He paints pictures. When he published the books, it was NOT AGAINST THE LAW IN CANADA... he has never published anything in Germany.
He shipped books to Germany, and offers a German translation of his revisionist screeds on his Web site, which is still a going concern. It has been updated today. Whether he "published" in Germany is a technicality that's pretty much vanished in the information age.
Don't get me wrong -- I am a firm and fervent believer in the American vision of free speech, and an advocate of counterspeech -- that the answer to evil and false message is to shout back more good and more truth. I would fight to the last breath against European-style restrictions here.
But I accept that most folks in the world have more faith in government than most Americans do, and that democracy will inevitably lead them to draw the lines of freedom vs. security somewhere other than ours. Democracy means that the people choose, and promoting democracy means accepting that other people will make choices we wouldn't.
Even among Europeans, Germany is facing considerable resistance in trying to expand its version of anti-Nazi laws throughout the EU. Even among those relatively similar countries, there's no consensus, and no reason there should be. There's going to be a lot of friction in an era when the global flow of information is pretty much unstoppable.
Canada changed its laws several years ago and created the new category of "hate crimes" and included writing things the government did not approve... they used this law to deport a CANADIAN CITIZEN to Germany.
Ernst Zundel is not and has never been a Canadian citizen. His citizenship applications were denied. He was a permanent resident alien, but that status lapsed when he lived in the US and did not set foot in Canada for several years. Zundel is a citizen of Germany.
Incidentally, Hate crimes such as this are tried before an appointed "Tribunal" and not a jury of one's peers. There is no appeal from the Tribunal's decision.
In Germany, or in Canada? I'll have to take your word for that. I don't know enough about the process to comment on it, and don't have time to research it at the moment.
I hope you aren't a US citizen and never bring your fascist views here.
I hope you aren't a US citizen and never bring your fascist views here.
In unguarded moments, some Holocaust deniers have admitted that the real purpose of Holocaust "revisionism" is to make National Socialism more palatable. I might buy the argument that the revisionists were engaged in the search for truth, if I ever met one who didn't follow "the Holocaust is a myth" with "and the Jews deserved it."
excellent response above and I especially agree with this -
"I am a firm and fervent believer in the American vision of free speech, and an advocate of counterspeech"
So stay away for the sake of your own sanity. You won't like it here. People will say things you hate but the government won't lock them up. The idea that those people are walking around free will drive you crazy.
Tell me about free speech in the USA. Tell me about things like Waco, eminent domain abuse, zoning, trashing the possessions of homeless people, architectural review boards, the use of power and money to silence critics, "mental health" abuses, standardized testing, etc.
"He/she said that some species of truth utterance have been criminalised. Surely you know this.
And right you are.
Please stay away, we have plenty of people here already like John McCain eroding our free political speech rights. We don't need any more.
Right, like throwing the guy in jail for denying the holocaust. Very expansive view you have.
And yes, it's free political speech that McCain attacked. You guys want him? Sounds like he'd fit right in.
European Jewish population pre Third Reich -- 9.5 million.
European Jewish population post Third Reich -- 3.13 million.
Though I am against everything the Nazis stood for, holding an opinion, however ridiculous or insane, should never be a crime. I believe in freedom, even for those who would advocate at the top of their lungs that which I would spend a lifetime protesting at the top of mine.
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