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Holocaust denial writer jailed for five years
http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,,2014554,00.html ^

Posted on 02/15/2007 10:57:59 PM PST by Muentzer2005

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To: veronica

As with most defenses of speech, the issue is not solely what this person said, but whether another's speech may also result in prison. Incitement to violence is speech that should be sanctioned, as should defamation and fraud. Hate speech, including the denial of events that clearly occurred, should also be sanctioned, just not legally by imprisonment, in my opinion. If by some twisted logic this guy is viewed as a martyr by some, that is further reason to respond to him with ridicule, rather than jail. If, outside of the incitement language, others act because of his words, they should be imprisoned for their wrongful ACTS, not the thought or hate that inspired those acts.


101 posted on 02/16/2007 6:43:53 AM PST by NCLaw441
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To: SJackson; Hildy; MadIvan
World gone mad. Ernst Zundel gets more respect than Rudy Giuliani.
102 posted on 02/16/2007 6:44:14 AM PST by veronica
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To: veronica
The way to deal with such scum is to prove them to be fools, not make them imprisoned martyrs.

He broke the law he pays the price. Boo hoo.

See my Post 99.

Martyrs can be extremely dangerous people even if they never utter another word. It is far less dangerous to have a proven fool than a silenced martyr.

103 posted on 02/16/2007 6:46:03 AM PST by Polybius
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To: NCLaw441

Last time. Streicher walked nobody into the gas chambers. Yet, he was convicted at Nuremberg. If you want take issue with the Nuremberg trials, that's a big piece to bite off.


104 posted on 02/16/2007 6:46:39 AM PST by veronica
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To: Muentzer2005

Talk about going from guardrail to guardrail: First the Krauts imprison and then kill people for who they are, and now they jail people for what they think.


105 posted on 02/16/2007 6:49:10 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost (Spirit of '75)
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To: veronica
World gone mad. Ernst Zundel gets more respect than Rudy Giuliani.

Fear not, it's not the world that has gone mad.

Regards, Ivan

106 posted on 02/16/2007 6:50:54 AM PST by MadIvan (I aim to misbehave.)
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To: dman4384; kress

Wrong! America got involved two years after WW2 started, when Germany declared war on it - and even then, 2 1/2 years passed until real action was taken (and Germany´s Eastern front already moving fast towards Berlin). So, the "American viewpoint" is one without any touch to the horrors of a Nazi government. America went to war, just like it went to war in Korea or in Nam. You never experienced the Nazi terror first hand. And imagine being a Jew today - if it were allowed for Neo-Nazis to display the swastika during a march through the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin! No, it´s completely understandable to prohibit expressions of support for the Nazi regime. It´s not that the thoughts are criminal - expressing the thoughts in public is.


107 posted on 02/16/2007 6:51:17 AM PST by Michael81Dus
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To: Muentzer2005

What is next? Five years in jail for those who deny global warming? I thought Germany got rid of the Nazis. Evidently they are still running the show.


108 posted on 02/16/2007 6:51:57 AM PST by fightu4it (conquest by immigration and subversion spells the end of US.)
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To: veronica; dennisw; SJackson; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; Catspaw; knighthawk; Optimist; weikel; ...
Certain European countries have laws in place to punish Holocaust denial for a very valid reason.

Poland was the first country to fight Nazi Germany, yet in Poland such law was introduced recently.

Interestingly this law penalizes also views denying, disparaging or diminishing the suffering of the POLISH people as well.

So one could imagine the situation when some Jewish guy who argued with Poles about WWII could be judged and imprisoned in Poland for denial. How would you like that?

109 posted on 02/16/2007 6:53:21 AM PST by A. Pole (Lord Palmerston: "Nations have no permanent enemies or allies only permanent interests")
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To: Hacksaw
" No, I don't think the rest of us will toss aside the 1st Amendment. People who wish to do so are anti-American."

Germany doesn't use a copy of our Constitution for its laws.

But we'll pretend for the moment that the situation is happening here.

So do you believe that it would be anti-American for us to stop Islamo-fascists from advocating the extermination of all other Americans? Or do you believe that only Nazis should be allowed to do the same against all of the Jewish people on this planet? Our First Amendment wasn't made to support those kinds of efforts.
110 posted on 02/16/2007 6:53:45 AM PST by familyop (Neo-Nazis use slippery speech, because they are cowards.)
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To: Hemingway's Ghost

You are equating the murder of millions of innocents with the jailing of one law-breaker? Wow...


111 posted on 02/16/2007 6:54:39 AM PST by veronica
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To: veronica
How many times does it have to be explained to people that the Holocaust began with speech,

Speech is dangerous and must be controlled by government for our own good.

112 posted on 02/16/2007 7:01:17 AM PST by Romulus (Quomodo sedet sola civitas plena populo.)
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To: Muentzer2005


First they came for the Nazis...


113 posted on 02/16/2007 7:01:32 AM PST by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: familyop
Apparently all the America-hating imams are welcome to come here and incite jihad against Americans from US websites and mosques.

Free speech and all that. ;)

114 posted on 02/16/2007 7:02:33 AM PST by veronica
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To: veronica
World gone mad. Ernst Zundel gets more respect than Rudy Giuliani.

That surprises you, this is a conservative site after all?

Purveyors of child porn have their supporters as well.

115 posted on 02/16/2007 7:03:51 AM PST by SJackson (A vote is like a rifle, its usefulness depends upon the character of the user, T. Roosevelt)
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To: PLMerite

Yeah, it's so sad. Who will speak for the poor put-upon Neo-Nazis. *sniffle*


116 posted on 02/16/2007 7:04:36 AM PST by veronica
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To: Michael81Dus
And imagine being a Jew today - if it were allowed for Neo-Nazis to display the swastika during a march through the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin! No, it´s completely understandable to prohibit expressions of support for the Nazi regime. It´s not that the thoughts are criminal - expressing the thoughts in public is.

See Post 99.

Imagine being a Jew 50 years from now when new generations have rebelled against believing what their elders tried to force them to believe rather than proving to them, time and again, that what their elders claimed was absolutely true and successfully defending that position against all challengers.

**************

Free speech brings personal responsibility with it. Holocaust denial is in many ways not free speech. Free speech means you can have an opinion, but not necessarily that you can deny a horrible fact and in doing so you in fact advocate another genocide since you do not even recognize the first one.

I know it is a fact. You know it is a fact. How will future generations know that is was a fact?

Because they will be jailed if they even raise the question?

Would raising the question that the Katyn Massacre was not a Nazi atrocity be a punishable offense?

As it turned out, the Katyn Massacre was a Soviet atrocity and even Russia belatedly admitted it.

If you jail those who question or argue a position, with time, new generations will wonder if, like the Soviets, the powers that be are trying to hide the truth.

The way to combat such lies is to prove them wrong after the fool has given his best effort. Jailing the fool only gives him the glory of martyrdom and makes young minds wonder why you must resort to forcibly silencing him rather than proving him wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt.

99 posted on 02/16/2007 6:42:04 AM PST by Polybius

**************

As I wrote to Veronica, "Martyrs can be extremely dangerous people even if they never utter another word. It is far less dangerous to have a proven fool than a silenced martyr".

Banning a symbol is one thing.

Banning debate can be very dangerous.

117 posted on 02/16/2007 7:04:46 AM PST by Polybius
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To: veronica
"World gone mad. Ernst Zundel gets more respect than Rudy Giuliani."

I'm a Newt and Hunter fan, but Giuliani deserves much more respect (even from Zionist hicks like me) than Zundel or his supporters. Zundel's herd doesn't deserve any respect at all.
118 posted on 02/16/2007 7:05:41 AM PST by familyop (Neo-Nazis use slippery speech, because they are cowards.)
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To: PLMerite
"First they came for the Nazis... "

LOL!
119 posted on 02/16/2007 7:07:52 AM PST by familyop (Essayons)
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To: veronica
Apparently all the America-hating imams are welcome to come here and incite jihad against Americans from US websites and mosques.

It's sad that you don't see the difference between inciting violence and simply having a stupid opinion. By your logic, you are inciting violence.

120 posted on 02/16/2007 7:08:19 AM PST by Junior_G
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