Is $34.06 Per Hour 'Underpaid'? - Teacher salaries

Manhattan Institute ^ | 2/2/07 | Jay P. Greene

[Gabz]

I think ALL government school teachers should be required to pass Calculus. ( Up to Calc III would be better). Most don't need calculus, but passing it would assure that they were smart enough to be standing in front of a classroom.

I passed Calc III, and am incapable of teaching a class in anything. Some of us are willing to be up front and honest about our limitations.

[Skywalk]

But of course, I'm talking about actual costs, not opportunity costs. For me, that is critical in any analysis of TRUE costs to educate.

I'm also thinking of small 'schools' of about 10-20 kids. Yes, the teacher(s) would be paid but their comfort and profit would not necessarily be the driving motivation. Certainly no union would stand at the gates, ready to ruin this environment or distract the teachers and children from their primary purpose. There would be such places, of course, but in a truly free market, you'd have a vast array of options. Just as we have a vast array of options for food, clothes, etc.

Once MOST people again received a quality education and were not merely warehoused for much of their young lives, I think you'd see a drawdown in the participation in college. It simply wouldn't be needed.

I'd also advocate teaching kids when their minds are most able to absorb new information, so they'd be finishing earlier and not at "18." That's just delaying entry into the real world and 'socializing' them according to the state's dictates.

You'd have a more mature population as a result. Better for liberty and for preservation of our ideals. Though there would be some home schools for commies, socialists, neo-Luddites, etc. Such is the way of a FREE society.

[Skywalk]

That is the other part. We need to eliminate the other big budget, freedom-killing entitlements.

We must unshackle people from government AND from their fellow citizens (and illegals.)

But our society is too well indoctrinated. Imagine the outcry if a candidate (a viable one) advocated the end of public education! Or of forced 'contributions' to other people's retirement funds?

[SoftballMominVA]

Calc III? Sure, that's realistic since Calc II is the wash-out course for doctors and engineers.

Require all teachers to pass Calc III and get ready to pay top dollar for those teachers.

Hyperbole doesn't advance an argument.

[wintertime]

Calc III? Sure, that's realistic since Calc II is the wash-out course for doctors and engineers.
Require all teachers to pass Calc III and get ready to pay top dollar for those teachers.

Hyperbole doesn't advance an argument.

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So....are you admitting that teachers are NOT as smart as doctors and engineers?

Hm,,,Are you admitting that maybe teachers should NOT be paid as much as doctors and engineers since they don't need to be as smart, or work as hard for their degrees?

By the way, doctors ( last I checked) only needed Calculus I. Most don't "need" calculus to do their work, but it is part of their admission requirements. Hey!?,... Maybe medical school admission committees figured out long ago, that if a doctor couldn't pass Calculus I with a decent grade, they weren't smart enough to be making decisions about patients?

Since admission to professional school is very competitive. I chose an engineering based undergraduate degree. If I had not been accepted," my "Plan B" was to get a masters degree in bioengineering. I took Calculus III, engineering physics, differential equations, and numerical analysis as part of my math preparation.

By the way, I believe in free markets and I believe teachers what the free market dictates. A Comrade's pay should NOT be determined by legislative Peoples Community Committee, but, instead by the market. So,,,If the market is willing to pay a movie star, who is a high school drop out millions, and a nuclear physicist $50,000, then that is how it shakes out.

Hm?,,?

Now that I recently sold my practice, and am retired,I just might get a bioengineering degree. (Just for the fun of doing it, of course, since I don't need to work.). Thanks to anti-age discrimination laws, and plenty of tax payments from people who will never make as much as I did in my career, I could do something like that as a "hobby". Isn't socialism great? ( sarc)

[wintertime]

By the way, I believe in free markets and I believe teachers what the free market dictates.

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That should read:

By the way, I believe in free markets. Teachers should be paid what the free market dictates.

[mewzilla]

The pensions and health bennies are the two budget busters around here.

[SoftballMominVA]

No, I am saying that the achievement in one section of ones life does not mean always mean success in others. Intelligence in one area of math and the ability to teach writing, history, English, science and even math do not necessarily correlate and passing Calc III in no way guarantees that one is able to teach anything.

You want to get a degree on the public's dime? Hope it works out well for you. But be prepared to have people point out that it is inconsistent of you to demand that middle income tax payers should pay for K-12 for their kids because they can, but you think it is cute to get a "hobby" degree paid for by tax dollars, even though you claim you could pay for it. It's hard to have things both ways.

Once again, you use personal attacks and boasts about your socio-economic status to attempt to advance your arguments. You have a lot of money, so what? Why do you feel it is necessary to brag about what you have achieved throughout your life? I'm not the first poster to point this out to you. Didn't your mother teach you that genteel people consider it ill-bred to tout yourself in public?

[SoftballMominVA]

I knew what you meant. I teach middle school special education and am quite fluent in divining one's meaning even though the written sentence is somewhat garbled. It happens, don't worry about it. I rarely jump on people for spelling and grammatical errors unless I see them jump on others. We all make mistakes and anyone who judges others on little errors like that, well, they are just petty.

[Twinkie]

Everyone needs at least a six-month sabbatical every few years . . and that means to get completely away from their usual grind for the whole six months (or a year). (This is six-months straight and vacations don't count toward it.)

In our state, they started having major problems with truck drivers being in record numbers of accidents and driving too many hours at a time. My husband asked me, "Well what would YOU suggest?" He knows I have odd ideas. So, I said, "I would make them take naps." He laughed at me. A couple of weeks later, the state lawmakers passed regulations requiring truck drivers to only drive a certain number of hours and then they have to take a nap. Hee Hee.

So, if I were dictator of the world, everyone would be required to take a six-month to a year sabbatical every five years or so. I would facilitate it by ordering my staff to "handle it". Also, I would dictate that daily afternoon naps would be a necessity.

I know. I know. Someone will find problems with me on this and say "nothing will get done". I can hear it now. (No, I am not joking.)

[wintertime]

You want to get a degree on the public's dime? Hope it works out well for you. But be prepared to have people point out that it is inconsistent of you to demand that middle income tax payers should pay for K-12 for their kids because they can, but you think it is cute to get a "hobby" degree paid for by tax dollars, even though you claim you could pay for it. It's hard to have things both ways.
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Yep! Utterly inconsistent. Isn't socialism great? ( sarc) ( And,,,sitting here laughing)

But,,,really,,,seriously. I have been planning my retirement career. I have artistic ability, and I have seriously considered using our local state college ( a definite "B team" school) to pursue an art degree. And,,,again, thank you, to all those who will help pay for my hobby.

Please remember, Softballmom, if those professors teaching the teachers in our colleges of education were to **really** get their way, we would all be living under Marxism. Gee! Imagine how unfair that would be. Hypocrites would RULE! ( not laughing)

Scratch a liberal and you will find a socialist. Dig a little deeper and you will find the Marxist nuclear fuel rods driving all they do.

[RavenATB]

"I wish all the teacher bashers would just go to college, get a degree in education, and become a teacher ."

I finished my student teaching and earned my degree in education in 1979. Thankfully, sometime in my educational process I learned the difference between discussing average teacher salaries and "TEACHER BASHING."

As for your whining about the cost of college, how is that somehow special for teachers? Do colleges have a discount rate for engineers, lawyers, and people who want degrees in basket weaving?

The difference, if any, may be that teachers have proven themselves...by far...the biggest whiners and complainers of any "professional" field.

[SoftballMominVA]

You have stated you want the government out of education completely - but not until you get your free 'hobby' degrees huh?

Art degree? Bioengineering? I thought you said last month you were going to Costa Rica to be a missonary? Change of mind?

[dashing doofus]

"The difference, if any, may be that teachers have proven themselves...by far...the biggest whiners and complainers of any "professional" field."

True for many, but especially for the NEA-supporter types who are constantly pleading poverty. If teaching is truly that terrible, they should do what millions in the private sector do every day: quit and get a new job. You'd think from some of the complaints that the teachers are indentured servants...

I think many teachers like the warm fuzzy blanket of tenure, guaranteed (by taxpayers) healthcare for life, nice pensions, summers off, sabbaticals, automatic pay increases based on longevity, etc. I think most have never worked in the private sector, and do not understand competition and the concept of accountability.

I worked briefly in the public sector over 20 years ago, and couldn't take the "good enough for government" attitude of my co-workers. Most of my former co workers were constantly obsessing about their pensions and how to maximize them.

[SoftballMominVA]

If teaching is truly that terrible, they should do what millions in the private sector do every day: quit and get a new job.

I have a neighbor who teaches in a nearby county. She makes quite a bit more than I do, (she reminds me of this pretty much weekly) but her commute is ghastly! 90 minutes each way in bumper to bumper traffic 5 days a week. So she was whining to me Saturday about her commute and the upcoming weather and how the county we live in will be closed, but hers will be open and how hard life is...yadda yadda yadda. So I asked her, hey, why not teach in this county. She looked at me like I had grown a third eye! "but, but, but" she stammered, "I'd have to take a pay cut" and so I pointed out that she was trading her peace of mind for $$ and if it wasn't worth it, she could change at the end of any school year. Can't have it both ways - high pay to brag about and a short commute like I have.

I agree with you 100% - if the job is that bad, then LEAVE! Quit taking up space that others might want and might do a better job because they aren't bitter about the perceived sacrifices.

That kind of teacher gives those of us who are happy and satisfied and working as hard as we can a bad name.

[luckystarmom]

I have been substitute teaching at my daughters school, so I am becoming very aware of what teachers do.

I also have a degree in computer science and worked for 10 years as a software engineer.

I think teaching is much less demanding than engineering. Most engineers are expected to work overtime without pay when needed. If you have a project done, you may have to even work all night long to get the job done. I could not take any work home because I worked for a defense contractor, and our work was classified. All my work had to be done at the office.

Most engineers are expected to travel. I had to travel to El Paso and work out in the dessert in 110 degree heat with limited air conditioning for 3 weeks on one of my trips. We were testing some equipment. Some of the other engineers got heat exhaustion because they were drinking cokes (with caffeine) to hydrate themselves. I grew up in Texas and knew that I needed to drink lots of water.

My first year in engineering, I spent the whole year on travel from Texas to California. Since I was single, it was okay with me. However, it was horrible for the engineers that were married.

I only had 3 weeks off for the entire year. I could use it for sick leave or vacation. I tended to get sick about 7 days a year, so I usually had only about 8 days of vacation. I added 1 extra day for every 2 years I worked, so I was up to 4 weeks when I quit after 10 years working.

I started making about $25K a year. After 10 years, I was making about $55K a year.

My niece just got a degree in Marketing. She is making less than $30K starting salary. That's a pretty low salary. Grant it, I don't think she has the most stressful job. She's an event planner at a major hotel. I don't think she has to work much overtime, and she doesn't have to travel.

I think teaching is easier than engineering, both the college degree and the work. I'm pretty sure that engineering is easier than being a doctor.

I'm thinking about actually trying to get my teaching credentials. These are the reasons. 1) I could get a job at my kids' school. 2)I'd have the same holidays as my kids. 3) If I have to work overtime grading papers and making lesson plans, I can do that at home. 4) I would have more time off in the summer. 5) I actually like teaching/helping kids. It's a lot more rewarding than writing software.

Every job has its' pluses and minues. Teaching is better than some jobs, and worse than others. I do think that teachers should be able to afford to buy a small house in the area where they work.

[Smittie]

So do I. to say that the average teacher makes around $5500 a month is ridiculous.

[NHResident]

Sorry, the comment went over your head - clearly you lack anyone close at hand to translate the obvious to you.

The lapse of time was because I have to EARN my way in life. I'm not supported by a 'teacher'.

[swmobuffalo]

"Sorry, the comment went over your head - clearly you lack anyone close at hand to translate the obvious to you. "

Having a good time or just bored?

My support is well earned.

[NHResident]

Honey or should I say Ms. Quiquivix:

I just found your sad story in the WSJ (Here: http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110009667 )- I'm sorry, I would never have attempted to address you rationally if I had any idea you were undergoing such a horrid time.

I apologize for putting you under additional strain by trying to lead you along a path of rational thought. Deal with your problems, you clearly need to concentrate on that. I won't respond and strain your mental health any more.