Posted on 01/30/2007 1:12:56 PM PST by FreedomCalls
I retired from LE after 32 years about two years ago. I'm hardly a cop-hater.
You simply don't know what you're talking about.
Do you live in a high crime area? Do you live in an urban environment?
Are you a woman?
Some rednecks around here are better suited to rural living or honkey tonk trailer parks where life resembles the wild west. Who needs cops anyway when they can sit and blast away? Why do we need Jack Booted Thugs to murder innocent people under the control of the CFR and tri-lateral commissions who want to take all our guns and deny us the right to ignore drug laws?
Ignore the cop haters out there. There might be a few yahoos and idiots on the job just like anywhere else in life but the fact is that most do a tough job with little appreciation for their efforts.
So they should get a pass when they act like stormtroopers?
Your need to smear law enforcement people is pathetic. Use of terms like stormtroopers reveals some deeper issues that you should get help with. Don't worry, you can go to the local Wal-Mart and get a pretend badge so you can ease the pain of being rejected for the security guard job you were declined for.
Go away...
still, you think it's easy to obtain permission like this in a fluid situation like an undercover drug operation??? hope you didnt do much field work. the fact is that these officers ultimately had the best interests of people like this old man in mind. that is why they were doing the operation in the first place. it went bad. thousands of other daily ops dont go wrong but you dont hear about those. and for you to sit there and second guess them on their tactics is silly and you should know better. the people do that in my command are usually the numbed up cops who ride a desk all day.
How close is the nearest golf green to YOUR front door ;o)
WTF!
Have to burn down the village to save it?
...for you to sit there and second guess them on their tactics is silly and you should know better...
So exactly who SHOULD they be responsible for their actions to, officer?
Nearest one is about 5 miles from me....
Couldn't be bothered learning how to play either. Leaves less time for on-line activities like FR, ESPN and porn.
five times? they had made 5 arrests during their operation that day. thats normal. but obviously loitering does encourage someone coming up to you and asking if you want to score.
and there is no woe-is-me factor here, thank you very much. it's the best job in the world and i've had many others. it's just a fact that nowadays criminals have the upper hand in many situations. and yes, this old man who fires upon people in the vicinity of his property is a criminal. at least, here, he acted criminally.
You don't know that. This is Florida, not fairyland. There is a very real possibility these cops are guilty of murder and the old man did nothing criminal.
they are responsible to the public. but most of the public doesn't come out with guns blazing! as soon as that happened, it was a gun fight. would you expect the officers not to shoot back simply because there was a misunderstanding? it is the job of these cops to look and act like criminals. this guy bought it and came out shooting. but ask yourself: if you were the old man, would you have acted the same way? if the answer is yes, then we have nothing to talk about. most people would have called 911, right?
Not if you get your way.
but most of the public doesn't come out with guns blazing!
And neither did he. Remember the first two encounters?
as soon as that happened, it was a gun fight.
You haven't established it happened.
would you expect the officers not to shoot back simply because there was a misunderstanding?
I expect these officers to DIE rather than murder an innocent.
it is the job of these cops to look and act like criminals.
Sounds alot like "I was only following orders" to me. Their "job" does not take precedence over a man's right to be secure in his person, houses, papers, and effects... Guess where that came from.
this guy bought it and came out shooting.
Again, no he didn't.
ask yourself: if you were the old man, would you have acted the same way?
We don't know how he acted. All "we" have is your unsubstantiated, butt covering, speculations.
if the answer is yes, then we have nothing to talk about. most people would have called 911, right?
And told them what?
Well do you actually SEE any drugs, sir? Are they doing anything dangerous. This is an emergency line, sir. What is the actual emergency. Oh, okay. We'll send a full Swat team out immediately.
You think nobody here has ever called 911 before?
Nice spin to try to dodge the facts, but according to the eyewitnesses, the police fired first and they were not "in the vicinity of his property," they were ON his property.
According to eyewitnesses, the pretend drug dealers shot at him first when they saw he had a gun. He returned fire -- as is anyone's right.
Looks like Mr. Singletary tried to do that.
Yep, I was a detective for 28 years, always in the field except when I was writing reports or interrogating at the shop. When we needed to set up on something and needed to use someone's property to do it, we asked in advance, unless it was exigent, of course. I've hidden on people's property numerous times, always with permission, and never met anyone who wasn't glad to accommodate. Geez, they want to bring you coffee, iced tea, lunch, whatever, lol! It makes their day!
I also know there are some lazy cops out there who cut corners and/or run all over the citizens, including vics and wits - talk to them like crap and show no respect for them as human beings or their rights. I'm the first one to stick up for cops and LE in general, but I also know when something goes wrong why it didn't need to go that way. This should not have happened. Usually citizens don't get killed even when an op goes bad, at least not by the cops, and it ends up with the supervisor or watch commander calling the citizen to smooth things over, and everybody moves on. I know very well that the citizen is not always right, and the old man made some mistakes, but ultimately the cops at the scene were responsible. They should have stood down and moved off the scene for a few minutes until a supervisor or uniforms contacted the old man to assure him as to their identity. Apparently the old man had already called the cops about them, so it's not like they couldn't get a hold of him. Further, dicks are or should be better at handling and finessing people than street cops are, and seasoned enough to not be jacking citizens up when they don't have a subject need to do it.
I realize we don't know everything about it as if we had written in stone facts. We are just chewing over a story as it has been presented to us.
However, if this was a high crime area then the cops are likely considering it hostile and when someone comes out waving a gun how should they react?
In a word; responsibly. To be clear; your hypothetical isn't an accurate reflection of the story here. It was said he 'had' a gun not that he 'waved it around.' Nitpicking? Maybe but you yourself said we don't know that much for sure. In addition when you say 'waved it around' you are characterizing an action not stating it in objective terms. There is a wide range of things a person could do with a gun in their hand from holding limply at one's side to aiming in a combat stance.
In any case I see the possibility that the police could have known the people they were there to protect better. They could have had better awareness of the consequences of pretending to be criminals. They are the only ones who have the advantage of knowing that they are not. The responsibility for seeing the potential misunderstandings that could come from that are theirs. I can see that acting disrespectfully in regards to others property rights helps their cover. But they can't ignore the fact that an honest (and courageous) citizen might predictably act aggressively to defend those rights.
We can't have it two ways. One, to expect citizens to take responsibility for themselves, their property and their neighborhoods and two, to not challenge reasonably perceived threats because it might be the authorities.
If the LEO POV is that everyone in a 'bad' neighborhood is a criminal or even just likely to be a criminal then it's time to drop civil policing, declare martial law and send in soldiers to sweep it clean. Treat it like Fallujah. Give the good people 24 hours to clear out and then go in and take everybody that's left down.
But I don't think anyone, including me, is ready to say it's to that point. That means there still has to be the presumption that it's primarily a place where law abiding citizens live and crime is a problem not the sole business of the populace. To distill all of that into one fine point; the police can't regard the citizens as enemies or inconveniences to their job. Police are there to serve citizens not the other way around.
Sorry for such a long rant and thank you for your good reply above.
I appreciate the compliment. Thank you.
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