Return of the wolf pack (New German U-boats)

C4ISR Journal ^ | January 04, 2007 | Tim Mahon

[Robert A Cook PE]

Don't buy the "short-range" sound byte too quickly.

WWI and WWII diesel boats did just fine crossing the Atlantic in large numbers running conventional diesels and limited batteries.

Granted, they can't get to India in 1 week at 30+ knots like a nuke can, but if you can buy 6 to 1 with a proven n-nuke design ....

And, as pointed out, mines can be dropped from any merchant by the dozens as it crosses

[Michael81Dus]

Germany has distanced itself from seeking nuclear-run subs or boats. We also don´t get carriers or - very badly - strategic bombers!

[Atlantic Bridge]

It is in the nature of those Fuel Cells that they can be used to retrofit all subs with E-motors. Therefore theoretically you should be able to use something like the German AIP system in Russian Kilos i.e. without too much effort.

It is clear that this could give the navies of smaller powers like China, Iran, Pakistan etc. etc. etc. a immense enhancement of their capabilities. We all know that the Kilos are not bad and we also know that the Russians sell them to anybody who has enough money to buy them.

The only danger to CVNs stems from the likelihood that nations like Iran and China know very well they do not need to sink many carriers. They only need to sink one, and even at that they don't need to sink the darn thing. Simply pull off a mission kill ....leave it crippled in the water with some several hundred men injured or dead. Once that happens then the US public, right on cue, will go up in arms and demand withdrawal. Political pressure will mount, and the war is over. Basically another Tet Offensive (where the enemy launches a strike that is a military disaster for them, but all the same manages to create friction among the American public that causes the enemy to turn an outright military defeat into a strategic win).

I agree that it will be very hard to take a US carrier down but I am sure that it is possible with a DE-sub. The political impact would be enormous since the CVNs are the medium of the US to prevail its power. In the 30ties nobody believed that it could be possible to penetrate the harbour of the Royal Navy, Scapa Flow until the German Korvettenkapitaen Guenter Prien and his submarine U 47 sank the British battleship Royal Oak there in 1939.

You are right. The loss of a carrier could cause a fundamental change in the US strategy and politics. Hillarys and Obamas do not have the nuts (espechially not Hillary ;) ) to stand such a political storm.

[Atlantic Bridge]

If Im not mistaken,it is offered as a retrofit for both German origin(Type 209 class) & non-German subs.

Since you Indians already bought 4 209s from HDW you have now the possibility to change them into the super-silent and therefore most effective subs of your fleet.

Nevertheless I would prefer to sail in the larger 212 or in a Kilo since the 209 is for sure among the most cramped ships you can think of. The crew is packed like sardines in a can. Only the 206 class is even more narrow.

:-)

[SampleMan]

Don't buy the "short-range" sound byte too quickly. WWI and WWII diesel boats did just fine crossing the Atlantic in large numbers running conventional diesels and limited batteries.

Most all of them were sunk. After 1943, U-boats suffered tremendously. True enough that conventional subs can go along way, but they cannot hunt down their prey. They must hope to place themselves in front of it. This works well, if you are defensive protecting a choke point, or offensive against a poorly equipped enemy.

Snorkeling is a perilous period for a deisel boat, and any type of transit is going to require frequent snorkeling. Additionally, once discovered, a conventional boat can only go moderately fast for a very short period of time.

Granted, they can't get to India in 1 week at 30+ knots like a nuke can, but if you can buy 6 to 1 with a proven n-nuke design ....

This used to be the argument of the MiG-21 vs the F-15. Turns out though, that it was better to have one F-15.

I think conventional subs make a great deal of sense for defensive operations, but come up short as an offensive platform if any sort of distance is involved.

If we were to attempt to operate conventional subs on the other side of the Atlantic, let alone the Pacific or Indian Ocean, we would have to have sub tenders and/or bases to support them, and we would have to have a lot more of them, just to cover the same area.

Most of our adversaries can simply be outrun by an SSN.

[sukhoi-30mki]

The Kilo is no better when it comes to comfort(it's Russian after all!!).It's got a much larger crew of 50 or so,which itself negates any advantage in space & most models barring recent ones have poor climate controls,which means that operating in places like the Arabian Sea is like staying in an Oven.The Type-209s are better in that regard.

[sukhoi-30mki]

Pakistan is buying the French MESMA Steam turbine based AIP system for it's Agostas & China is looking at Russian & indegnious systems.None of these as of now match the German system in endurance or quietness,but the point is that all their ships are getting a big qualitative boost.

[caver]

That picture looks like the sub has windows in the front.

[CORedneck]

Old German empire coming back ?

[SampleMan]

I wrote a paper back in college (1987) about using diesel subs as defensive elements to protect our shores against Soviet subs. But today that same situation doesn't exist.