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Trial will debate 2nd Amendment rights
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | January 6, 2007 | Bob Unruh

Posted on 01/10/2007 12:44:45 PM PST by looscnnn

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To: mugs99
When the first amendment was written, there were no such thing as computers. Does that mean we have no first amendment rights here on FreeRepublic?

Straight up. Bump for later 

81 posted on 01/10/2007 1:54:30 PM PST by zeugma (If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.)
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To: mountn man
Though I agree with your statement, what about the individuals who were loyal to the king and who would have agreed to not be armed? Were not their rights infringed upon by the founding fathers?

If we take the position that our rights exist whether or not they are guaranteed, then the same right existed under King George. If the right guaranteed by the Constitution in the 2d Amendment is not one of the natural rights guaranteed by our Creator, then in truth, it is not really a right, but a freedom or privilege. I won't argue that point one way or another, but to answer your question, recognizing a right exists does not take away any right from those not choosing to exercise that right.

Fast forward to today, and there are all types who say that the 2nd ONLY means for a militia, and that we don't have a modern day militia.

Yes, this is the interpretation of those who would sunset the 2d Amendment, but it does not wash. The reason given as an explanation for why the right existed, did not in any way include supplementary language limiting the right either because of time or changes in our society.

This same argument is used here on FR when 14th Amendment rights are discussed. It's irrelevant what the purpose was for the Country to ratify the 14th Amendment. The language in it is quite clear, just as it is with the 2d Amendment.

Or that reasonable laws can be enacted to protect the rights of others. But enact this law, then that law, and then another law. All these laws to protect someones rights, but ultimately these enacted laws can totally remove someone else's rights.

It's understood that in any society individual rights exist and must be protected. It is also understood that for society to function, those rights can and should be curbed to the extent they may have a deleterious effect on society as a whole. Do governments go to far? You bet. Then, our recourse is with the courts, the electoral process and the constitutional processes that exist.

What is considered a right in the majority of the nation, is outlawed in Chicago. Basically the 2nd amendment is null and void in Chicago.

Conceal and carry laws, which we here in South Carolina have also come with licensing requirements. I believe that laws prohibiting any firearm is a violation of the 2d Amendment. But there in Chicago, the citizens must take actions such as I mentioned above.

82 posted on 01/10/2007 1:54:45 PM PST by MACVSOG68
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To: stm
Hey retard, when the Second First Amendment was written, there were no such thing as machine guns Free Republic. If you want to own a machine gun post here, fine. Drop the four grand it takes for a Class III public broadcasting license.

There. I fixed your comment to make it conform to today's reality.

83 posted on 01/10/2007 1:55:23 PM PST by Gritty (It's never a good idea to put reality up for grabs. There may come a time when you need it.-Mk Steyn)
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To: taxcontrol

Letters of Marquee set forth in the Constitution directly assume ownership of warships mounting numerous cannon by privet parties; your argument is contradicted by the founding documents.


84 posted on 01/10/2007 1:57:37 PM PST by El Laton Caliente (NRA Member & GUNSNET.NET Moderator)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ...
Heh. Nothing like a fun "barroom brawl" thread to brighten up a dull Wednesday. $:-)

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

85 posted on 01/10/2007 1:58:31 PM PST by Joe Brower (The Constitution defines Conservatism. *NRA*)
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To: mountn man
Fast forward to today, and there are all types who say that the 2nd ONLY means for a militia, and that we don't have a modern day militia.

We DO have a modern day militia. Congress has unilaterally and legally defined the militia as everyone in the National Guard, PLUS every able-bodied male aged 17-45.

Thus being a member thereof, I want my M4. ...funny, I suddenly hear the tune change...

86 posted on 01/10/2007 1:59:38 PM PST by ctdonath2
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To: ctdonath2

Yeah, I think they are trying to pull another Miller by withholding medications, etc. from him. I bet they are hoping he will die of "natural causes" so that they will get away with another one.


87 posted on 01/10/2007 2:00:28 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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To: Smokin' Joe
The defense can argue that while crying "Fire" in a crowded theater can be reasonably expected to cause harm to persons therein, the mere posession or manufacture of a machine gun, absent the criminal misuse thereof or reasonable expectations of such criminal misuse does not present a reasonable expectation of injury to other persons or to the public in general.

Yes, that will be the defense response. But the prosecution will have already made the case that reasonable curbs may be placed on individual rights even to prevent a future harm. Giving a 6 year old a firearm doesn't necessarily mean he will harm himself or others, but reasonable laws can prevent a 6 year old from ownership and use. Just as the 14th Amendment guarantees equal protection of the laws, it does not require that felons have the same privileges as others. Yet a felon might not do any harm if permitted the freedom.

It will come down to whether ownership of a machine gun can reasonably be considered an unfettered right, or whether the state has the power to regulate its ownership and use, as it does in other rights issues.

88 posted on 01/10/2007 2:03:00 PM PST by MACVSOG68
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To: stm
Hey retard, when the Second Amendment was written, there were no such thing as machine guns.

When the Constitution was written, there was no TV or Internet either. Do you support government censorship of them?

89 posted on 01/10/2007 2:03:16 PM PST by jmc813 (Go Jets!)
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To: HogFixer

Unlike Stewart, Fincher's past is squeaky clean so there is nothing to divert the case from Constitutionality.


90 posted on 01/10/2007 2:03:27 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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To: El Laton Caliente

Hardly a contradiction. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Ordnance for more information about the common perception of the term during the time of our founders.


91 posted on 01/10/2007 2:06:00 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: MACVSOG68

"Should a 6 year old be allowed to own and use a firearm? How about a felon? As long as the licensing doesn't prohibit reasonable ownership and use, it doesn't violate the 2d Amendment, and it will likely be held so."

There are those that would argue that those laws are unconstitutional.


92 posted on 01/10/2007 2:06:13 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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To: MACVSOG68
Reasonable laws are enacted to ensure the rights of all of a society's citizens, and that means that while the 2d Amendment guarantees the right to have arms, laws can be enacted to ensure that that right does not endanger or infringe of the rights of others.

Yeah, laws against murder and assault with a deadly weapon.

93 posted on 01/10/2007 2:06:55 PM PST by jmc813 (Go Jets!)
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To: stm

STM STFU RFN BTW ESAD.


94 posted on 01/10/2007 2:08:18 PM PST by DCBryan1 (Arm Pilots&Teachers. Build the Wall. Export Illegals. Profile Muslims. Execute Scum & Pit Bulls.)
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To: MACVSOG68

By the way, there are many states that give all rights back to felons, except 2nd amendment, when released from jail/prison. Why should the 2nd be treated any different? Because guns can be dangerous? Sorry, but they are not barred from archery equipment; baseball bats; golf clubs; etc.


95 posted on 01/10/2007 2:09:04 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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To: looscnnn
There is no law stating that you can't yell fire in a crowded theater. As you stateed laws can be enacted to ensure that that right does not endanger or infringe of the rights of others; that does not mean that they can ban certain words from being spoken or to require expensive "licenses" to use such words.

No, the law would state that no actions can be taken including the use of language to endanger others. That would cover your crowded theater scenario. And yes, licenses are required for all sorts of activities exercised under the guise of the 1st Amendment, including licenses to print and sell books, licenses for journalists, licenses for broadcasting. All libel and slander laws are designed to curb the use of speech, whether written or verbal.

96 posted on 01/10/2007 2:09:13 PM PST by MACVSOG68
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To: MACVSOG68
I agree with your assessment. There is also an issue of the government being charged with securing public safety, but it seems to me that it's difficult to argue that someone who has broken no other laws is a threat to public safety for simply owning potentially dangerous object.

It's like arguing that I'm an imminent drunk driver because I own both alcohol and a car.

97 posted on 01/10/2007 2:11:34 PM PST by tcostell (MOLON LABE)
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To: spunkets
They all infringe on the 2nd. Note that the 2nd acknowledge that it's a right, not a priviledge, so alllicencing schemes are repugnant to the Constitution and bogus.

Few would agree with that. Would it be unconstitutional to prohibit a 6 year old from taking a gun to school? How about a murderer? What about carrying guns on an airplane? Should we permit Muslims to carry firearms on a United flight?

98 posted on 01/10/2007 2:12:33 PM PST by MACVSOG68
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To: taxcontrol

From the link you supplied:

"the [Ordnance] Board was also responsible for Naval munitions, including cannon, shot, muskets, and gunpowder."

It even calls "ordnance" everything from muskets to cannon...


99 posted on 01/10/2007 2:13:57 PM PST by El Laton Caliente (NRA Member & GUNSNET.NET Moderator)
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To: jwalsh07
What is unreasonable about a law abiding American citizen owning the weapon that he used in the service of his country? Owning an M16 is perfectly consistent with the second amendment. In fact, we should follow Israels lead and take our M16's home with us when we leave active duty.

Why stop with that? How about an M-60, or a grenade launcher, or a 175mm SP? And surely you are not limiting such use to only those who served are you?

Your prior restraint argument is going nowhere.

That's irrelevant to me. As you well know JW, I don't post here on FR to make friends, but to make points. I have made the points I suspect the prosecution would make in this case. The judge could well agree with you, though I doubt it.

100 posted on 01/10/2007 2:18:42 PM PST by MACVSOG68
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