Posted on 12/12/2006 9:32:13 AM PST by LAMBERT LATHAM
I'll stick to what I said in post #114.
Must go now, but thanks!
Your welcome. Nice talking to you.
Definitely!
"The war was won in three weeks. Magnificant victory for our troops. The last three and a half years we've been attempting to win the peace. The problem is not military, but political. We assumed that giving the Iraqis a chance at democracy, they'd take it, run with it, and stablize their own nation. That's where the policy has, to a certain extent, broken down.
While Bush’s effort to combat terrorism by planting democracy in the Islamic world was a noble strategy, and probably worth a go, the real problem with the policy is the now-evident fact that democracy and Islam are about as compatible as oil and water. History has recorded that democracy took root in the west because democracy, freedom, a recognition and respect for the basic rights of man, flourished in the Judeo-Christian ethos of the west. Democracy grew because it was planted in good soil. In Iraq, democracy, freedom, respect for life, respect for the rights of the individual, respect for women, freedom of thought, freedom of association, may ultimately be choked-out because the soil is bad. Such things as freedom, respect for life, respect for the individual, freedom of expression, self-determination, and so forth, are anathema to Islam. Islam is a false religion. Their god is Satan. They worship oppression and glory in death. How could democracy take root in such an environment? Sharansky and Bush may be right to a point – that in the heart of every human beats a desire for freedom and dignity. But the prerequisite here is that it must beat in a human heart, and what Islam breeds is inhumanity.
I don’t fault Bush for his optimism. The leftist naysayers will now gloat that they were right all along, but they were never right. Their strategy for confronting Islamic terror was to roll up into a fetal position and question why they hate us. Regardless of Bush's good intentions, it becomes clearer with each passing day that optimism is a western virtue, something completely lacking in the soul of the Muslim world. How does one “reform” a cancer? It appears we need a new strategy for combating Islamic terror. But I’m not sure we have it in us to do what probably needs to be done."
Well put. My 2 cents is this:
1) I agree with the article about gathering market research of how we handle country after our military victory. You state more or less the same with islam not being compatible with democracy. We could have saved ourselves lives, money and time by ruling the country under martial law until all warring factions had subsided.
2) From here our options are limited. Pull out and let Iranian influence run the country or finish the job. What does finish the job mean? It means we take the gloves off, use balck opps to kill people like Al Sadr, offer no surrender when we do attack the Mahdi army at large except UNCONDITIONAL surrender. Use black opps to send the Iranians a strong message we CAN TOUCH YOU, we just have used unecessary restraint.
Now do we have the political will to do this? Unfortunately I don't think so at this point. Hell, we have already decided Iran is going nuclear after they have stated they will build nukes and use them on Israel and we have done nothing. So as much as I would like to be positive, I only see Iraq getting worse so if we aren't going to excerise our options to TRULY solve the problem then let's at least get our boys home so they aren't banther fodder.
Public opinion remained in favor for the first year or so after the war until there was no let up in the deaths of our occupation forces.
The reason there was no let up was due to the constant drumbeat from the enemedia and the demonRAT politicians, along with more than a few repubs.
It was like they were detonating the IED's in Iraq with their rhetoric from the safety of their ivory towers. I have heard a few rumors that would support my suspicions, but have been unable to verify them.
The blood of our troops is on the hands of the enemedia and the politicians, IMNSHO! But that's just me. ;*)
There would have been no drumbeat if there had been no resistance movement or if it had been dealt with violently and crushed when it first appeared.
It's insidious, isn't it.
Your posts show a good grasp of reality. Some posters are feeling sorry for themeselves and scapegoat the media. They fail to see that people win or lose wars.
In WW II there were enough troops and materiel to completely defeat, occupy and control the enemy. Today a draft or using tax cuts for war bonds is not on the table. War is only for those who volunteer for it.
Can't hardly watch it anymore. It boils my blood. And to top it off, if you talk to these sheeple on the street, they have the nerve to tell you to take the blinders off. Idiots.
"So should we be spending the same proportion of national budget on Iraq that was spent on WWII? Should we drop 2 nuclear bombs like we did to end WWII?
I really don't like the comparison. It's like those who say Saddam was more effective at keeping down terrorism in Iraq (through torture and murder and human rights violations). "
I agree WWII is the wrong comparison on multiple levels. It really is reminiscient of Vietnam. We were winning that war on the ground (minus one surprising TET offensive by the NVA) but the left and the press turned the public against the war. The result was a million more Vietnamese dead with the left's name on them and a more dangerous world for almost two decades. Because of the left/media PC and restraint became the order of the day instead of WINNING no matter what means were necessary. Napalm necessary to annihalate the enemy? USE IT!!! We did the same damn thing in Iraq, allowing the interim government with no experience their failed PC strategy to 'make ammends' and political alliances with the enemy.
"The enemedia is getting the result they wanted all along. They've always been Saddamites, going back to the days when CNN refused to disclose torture and murder going on in Saddam's Iraq so that they could keep their Baghdad bureau open."
Yes, they got the result they wanted. When we do pull out, the result and casualties of the Iraqi people will skyrocket as it did in Vietnam. These will also have the left's name on them but I also blame the administration for allowing it to come this far when it was far easier to deal with the problem then and hell, we had all the historical research of avoiding such as mess in the first place!!!
That is precisely the new approach I was alluding to, the one that I doubt we have the will to follow. I completely agree with you. Richard Miniter has characterized the war on terror as "The Shadow War," and indeed we have fought battles in this war that the media, and certainly, the American people have no idea of. Perhaps we need to convert the war in Iraq, and against Iran and Syria, as a black op war, run it under the radar, if possible, out of the ability of the MSM to pester the effort to death.
BTW, a lot of people have rhetorically asked, "How do we define 'victory' in Iraq?" Your comment about turning over the nation to the influences of Iran is, to my way of thinking, the best characterization of "defeat in Iraq" as I can think of.
It is the treason, stupid.
Sadly, tens of thousand, maybe hundreds of thousands of these idiots will be the victims of the next big terrorist attack on the U.S. I despair for this country.
"I've never heard that before. Do you have a source? Thanks".
Maybe somewhat more than one year. I was there for the first year and it did not happen then. What was happening then was we were gradually being returned to the States for discharge or leave. There were no facilities for dependents.
If we were fighting the Iraqis I would call for a all out effort.
But we are not,we are fighting forces that are from other countries that are embedded in Iraq.
We are also caught up in a secitarian war betwen the Sunnis & Shia.
Not true. I was there. Maybe in the Russian zone but not ours. They were completely controlled.
Ohhhh but putting a democrat in the WH will end terrorism. Everyone knows that terrorism stems from the current administration./sarc ;)
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