Historian Doubts Record of Black Pilots

Newsday & AP ^ | 12/11/06 | n/a

[Sir Gawain]

How much history is really the lies of the liberal press?

[100-Fold_Return]

Bless this guy for real guts.

How I wish these legends were close to true :

[AnotherUnixGeek]

"I think they are trying to destroy our record. What's the point now?" Woods, 87, told the Advertiser.

The point is historical accuracy, which is never a bad thing. If it turned out that the Tuskegee Airmen did suffer casualties to the bombers they were escorting, it would take nothing away from their accomplishments or the honor they deserve. Great military service doesn't require perfection, which is usually the result of dumb luck.

[Enchante]

It wouldn't make their combat record any less honorable if some bombers were shot down under their escort - so many thousands of bombers were shot down in the skies of Europe - I always thought that claim sounded utterly incredible, but since it has been made so often I figured someone had actually researched it before now. Probably some liberal academic or activist (often the same thing) inserted the statement into one of the early efforts to honor the Tuskegee airmen and it just kept getting recirculated. It does not dishonor them if they turn out to be just a little bit human. The only way a fighter group could never lose an escorted bomber in WWII would be if (a) they simply didn't fly too many combat missions, or (b) they simply didn't encounter many German fighters. Again, it's not diminishing their actual accomplishments to make the record accurate.

[RunningWolf]

Well it always sounded a little like folklore that zero bombers were lost from enemy fighters while under escort by the red tails when put into the context of WW2.

That however, does not diminish in anyway their contributions, or the hurdles they overcame to make those contributions.

[LanaTurnerOverdrive]

Bless this guy for real guts.

Your post indicates that you believe his statements are FACT, and that you WANT it to be true. Two questions: Why do you assume that this lone voice of opposition is speaking the truth, and, why do you want it so much?

Also, welcome to FR.

[Ben Mugged]

From the Montgonery Advertiser http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061210/NEWS/612100313/1001

The hallmark of the Tuskegee Airmen success story has been that America's first black fighter pilots never lost a bomber to enemy aircraft during World War II escort missions.

Two historians now say that's just a myth.

Daniel Haulman of Montgomery and William Holton of Columbia, Md., have released documents showing several U.S. bombers were downed by German planes during those Tuskegee Airmen protective flights.

The exact number is unclear, said Haulman, who is white, and Holton, who is black, but they are adamant that bomber losses to enemy planes did occur during missions over enemy territory.

"It's still being stated as fact that no bombers were lost to enemy aircraft, and it's wrong," said Holton, who is the national historian of the Tuskegee Airmen Inc., which was formed to promote and honor the fabled fighter pilots.

A third nationally known military historian indicated Friday that further study may be needed to clarify specific points about the Tuskegee Airmen escort missions.

"Even if they lost three or four bombers, it would still be miniscule compared to the losses incurred by white pilots who also escorted bombers," said Alan Gropman, an author who also teaches at the National Defense University in Washington.

Gropman said Haulman and Holton "may be right" in their findings, "but I'm not convinced and I think it's going to take more readings of those mission reports to settle this once and for all."

Surviving Tuskegee Airmen and authors of military publications have no doubts and continue to insist that no friendly bombers were lost to enemy planes while being escorted by black pilots.

The revelations by Haulman and Holton have had one impact. The president of the Tuskegee Airmen Inc. has altered his position a bit.

"I'm going to drop (references to having no losses) until we can get this thing clarified," retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Russell Davis said late last week. "We've got some homework to do, obviously."

[fish hawk]

Don't confuse me with facts! How many times do I have to tell you.

[leadpenny]

How much history is really the lies of the liberal press?

You may want to read the entire article first.

Holton, of Columbia, Md., suspects that claims about the all-black group never losing a plane resulted from something that happened in May 1945 around the end of the war.

In a letter commending Davis, Col. Buck Taylor said the group had the distinction of never losing a bomber, Holton said. A military public relations representative included the claim in Davis' official biography, he said, and Davis later put it in his autobiography.

Holton, in the AP interview, said it is unclear where Taylor got his information, "but that's sort of where the whole concept emanated from."

[100-Fold_Return]

I studied this in college and it blew my mind. An idealistic young dude wants to prove stuff like that wrong, but the deeper I dug the more is disliked what I found and walked off.

Again, I bless him for his guts.

[BlackVeil]

If it turned out that the Tuskegee Airmen did suffer casualties to the bombers they were escorting, it would take nothing away from their accomplishments or the honor they deserve.

Too right - it would seem to make them more heroic. The historian is doing the right thing to make sure that those who sacrificed their lives are recognised.

[domenad]

They were men who fought valiantly for their country to rid it of great evil. Does it really matter if they lost bombers or not?

[puppypusher]

This is should not be seen as a critique of the Tuskeegee Airman because nothing in war is perfect. But history should be revised to provide the truth.Otherwise its meaningless.

[DustyMoment]

The point is historical accuracy, which is never a bad thing. If it turned out that the Tuskegee Airmen did suffer casualties to the bombers they were escorting, it would take nothing away from their accomplishments or the honor they deserve. Great military service doesn't require perfection, which is usually the result of dumb luck.

Ding, ding, ding!!! Spot on, Geek, that's EXACTLY the same thing I was thinking. Whether they lost no planes or several planes, it doesn't change our perceptions of them - they were still heroes who fought a tough war and walked away at the end of it courageously. What's wrong with that record??

[Strategerist]

Your post indicates that you believe his statements are FACT, and that you WANT it to be true. Two questions: Why do you assume that this lone voice of opposition is speaking the truth, and, why do you want it so much?

Given the information in the article, what I know of military history, what I know of how bad information arises and gets repeated, I'd give a 99.99% probability that the guy saying there were some bombers they escorted that were lost is right.

There are a lot of various factoids that either arise from nowhere or are intellectually invalid that keep getting repeated and repeated and repeated because people like them and want them to be true. Another one is the claim that the US posession of airfields on Iwo Jima saved more Army Air Corps B-29 crew lives than the number of marines killed taking Iwo. Simply not close to true.

[leadpenny]

Yes. Would you rather a myth be perpetuated?

[Bender2]

I once sold Tuskegee Airmen pins, tie tacks and pilot wings on eBay and business was very good. Then, a Gary Brown of the "The National Tuskegee Airmen Inc" notified me I had to pay them a fee in order to sell any "Tuskegee Airmen" items. It did not matter that I bought my items from a whole-seller that had nothing to do with them, they said pay or they would have eBay my auctions.

I told them to go to hell and now I would not sell Tuskegee Airmen items if they gave them to me for free!

The actual Tuskegee Airmen were brave men no matter what their record was...

But the representatives of the "The National Tuskegee Airmen Inc" are sorry, lowdown, no count crooks and bigots. They must get their moxie from another well known crook, conman and bigot: Jesse Jackson.

Whew! Now that my rant is out of the way...

Merry Christmas to all ya'll!

[don'tbedenied]

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

[ichabod1]

raciss!