Posted on 12/10/2006 9:46:26 AM PST by My Favorite Headache
I'm sorry your son is a dead communist. I'm not sorry he couldn't kill thousands of his fellow citizens before he left.
Pinochet's legacy: economic collapse in the 80s, followed by nationalisation of mineral resources & land reform.
Pinochet's legacy, strongest economy in South America and a functioning democracy. What's Castro's legacy?
´According to historian James R. Whelan:
“Fallacy # 1: Was Pinochet a dictator?
“Was Pinochet, in fact, a "dictator?" Not if words have any meaning, he was not. According to the Oxford Encyclopedia English Dictionary, a dictator is "a ruler with (often usurped) unrestricted authority." Pinochet never possessed "unrestricted authority."
“The government Pinochet headed was "authoritarian," and, as Jeanne Kirkpatrick pointed out years ago, there is a very real and important difference between an authoritarian government and a dictatorship. In an authoritarian regime, most people are free to live their lives, unmolested by the government. “
“In a dictatorship, there is no freedom. Pinochet himself once described himself as a "dictator" but in the classic, Roman sense: A man who rescued a tottering country from collapse. That is precisely what Pinochet and his colleagues did in Chile, beginning in 1973. “
“Pinochet came to power at the head of a four-man military junta composed of the commanders of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Carabineros (para-military national police force) who, together, staged the Sept. 11, 1973 revolution. “
“In 1980, Chileans voted in a plebiscite by a two-to-one margin to approve a new Constitution, and with it the continuance of military rule for eight more years, during a carefully phased transition back to democratic government. “
“Pinochet then became a constitutional president, under the very same constitution which has remained in force ever since, including under two democratic governments. Jose Toribio Merino Castro, head of the Chilean Navy, led the newly created legislative branch. “
“The third branch of government, the judiciary though generally favorable to the aims of the Pinochet government remained independent throughout military rule. “
“The "Pinochet Constitution" was the most carefully crafted in the country’s history. Many people, including two ex-Presidents, helped draft it. Later, following his defeat in the 1988 plebiscite which the military government planned, organized, and staged exactly as it had said it would, Pinochet agreed to negotiations with the united, center-Left opposition, which led to 54 amendments to that Constitution. He did so even though the military were still very much in power.”
“Eighty-five percent of the Chilean people voted in favor of those changes, further legitimatizing that Constitution.”
“Fallacy #2: “The Chilean military snuffed out democracy for the purpose of simply seizing power for themselves. Salvador Allende Gossens, the world’s first freely elected Marxist-Leninist President, came to power in 1970 with only 36 percent of the vote, a mere 40,000 votes (of three million cast) ahead of the candidate of the Right.”
´By mid-1973, even the Christian Democrats could see that Allende was leading their country into a long night of totalitarian rule. Former Chilean President Eduardo Frei Montalva, once a supporter of Allende and a man who played a major role in Allende’s rise to power, admitted as much: "Chile is in the throes of an economic disaster ¡ a veritable catastrophe no one could foresee would happen so swiftly nor so totally...." It was, he said, "a carnival of madness."
“In a private meeting with a top business group, 60 days before the end of Allende’s rule, Frei said: "There is nothing I or the Congress or any civilian can now do. Unfortunately, the only way out of this problem is with rifles.... I advise you to take your concerns to the commanders-in-chief of the Armed Forces...."
“By the time the end did come, the Supreme Court, the Solicitor General, and the Chamber of Deputies had all declared Allende outside the law. A million Chileans, one-third of the labor force, were on strike, demanding that Allende resign.”
“It was only then that the military acted, responding not to an appetite for power, but to the clamor of their fellow citizens. Indeed, even the Commission on Truth and Reconciliation which investigated human rights abuses with a decidedly anti-military bias said in its report: "Until their decisive intervention in September of 1973 the Armed Forces stayed aloof from the crisis." In the immediate aftermath of that "decisive intervention," all three living ex-presidents of Chile said the military had saved the country.”
“The Christian Democrats published a statement, a few days after the coup, in which they said, "to tell the truth, we admit that what has happened was, mainly, the consequence of the economic disaster, the institutional chaos, the armed violence and profound moral crisis to which the deposed Government had brought the country....”
“The evidence demonstrates that the Government of Allende, moved above all by the zeal to conquer total power, by whatever means was preparing a terribly merciless and bloody auto-coup, for the purpose of plunging the country into a communist dictatorship."
Fallacy #3: Pinochet led a "bloody coup."
“Actually, fighting during Pinochet’s intervention lasted only four hours mainly because Allende’s huge paramilitary forces ran for cover, and because of the awesome precision of the Air Force attack on the presidential palace: All 19 rockets hit the target. Allende committed suicide with an AK-47 rifle given him by Fidel Castro. Not more than 300 or 400, including attackers, died in the fighting that day, from one end of Chile to other. “
“Yet, rare is the media report which does not refer ritualistically to the "bloody coup" which overthrew Chile’s "democratic government." It was not bloody. And Allende’s government had long since ceased being "democratic" when it fell during Pinoche’s coup.”
“Fallacy #4: Hundreds of thousands of victims were arrested and tortured in the days after the September coup.”
“In truth, Pinochet moved to rid the country of armed terrorist organizations, including many trained by two dozen East German Stasi agents who arrived in Chile only two weeks after Allende took power and who were joined soon after by Soviet and Soviet-bloc experts in murder and mayhem.”
“Pinochet moved to rid the country of a growing paramilitary force, including many trained by Cuban General Patricio de la Guardia Font, who bragged about his role in training Chilean paramilitary groups during his 1988 show trial in Havana. Pinochet also moved to rid the country of 15,000 men and women who were in Chile illegally, many of whom were detached from underground Communist organizations operating in other South American countries.”
“The groups removed by Pinochet were not lacking in firepower. Former president Eduardo Frei spoke after the coup of the discovery of "armament superior in number and quality to that of the Army, armament for 30,000 men...."
Frei also noted the boast of a Communist Party leader: "the generals have found only a small part of the arms we had...."
“In 1974, a self styled "International Commission of Jurists," which was sent by the World Council of Churches and was strongly biased against the Pinochet government, reported that only a third of the supposed 180,000 were actually arrested, mostly from the ranks of those described above. Of those arrested, most were quickly released.”
Fallacy #6: The "dictatorial" Pinochet was "ousted" by free elections.
“Pinochet was not "ousted" any more than any other candidate in free and open elections is "ousted." Pinochet voluntarily relinquished power in 1990. The 1988 plebiscite ending military rule was an explicit part of the planned and systematic return to democratic government a plan designed and executed by Pinochet’s military government.”
“Fallacy #7: Pinochet has life-long immunity from prosecution in Chile by virtue of his position as senator-for-life and is covered by an amnesty for crimes committed before 1978. “
“Senatorial immunity does not shield Pinochet from prosecution, and indeed, a move is already underway in Chilean courts to lift Pinochet’s immunity. Such a move would allow the ex-president to respond to the 61 (at last count) charges already filed against him. As for the famous amnesty, of the 2,053 persons pardoned under it, 1,475 were Leftist extremists while only 578 were military men. “
“Fallacy #8: Pinochet and the military epitomized evil. From the very beginning, the mainstream media echoing the chorus of vilification emanating from academics, churchmen, entertainers, and politicos around the world divided those in the Chilean drama into those who walked in darkness and those who walked in light. “
“Those who walked in darkness were the military and anyone associated with them. The anointed were those who opposed Pinochet no matter how much blood they might have on their own hands, no matter how much guilt they bore for the failed attempt to convert Chile into a second Cuba. “
“British writer Robert Moss, an expert on Chile (and author of one of the best books on the Allende years), put it this way: "It was boy scoutish of them, but the soldiers who overthrew Salvador Allende thought that they had earned the gratitude of the American people, and of the West in general. For one thing, they had prevented the transformation of Chile into a sort of Latin American Czechoslovakia, complete with Soviet bases.... Alas, how little these soldiers understood the mood of the times in Washington or London...."
“Another British author, David Holden, wrote: "Salvador Allende died a lucky man. In life he was a failure. Both his policies and his country were shattered long before the end. But in death, he achieved success beyond his dreams. Instantly canonized as the Western world’ s newest left-wing martyr, he became overnight the most potent cult figure since his old friend, Che Guevara...."
“In the spirit of the times, a "distinguished" American professor predicted: "the Chilean military will haul the nation back to the Stone Age, where a primitive and simplistic warrior village will be bedded down for a long sleep, awaiting the fantasied attacks coming from every direction." The attacks did come, but the military led their battered nation, not into a Stone Age, but into a Golden Age a Golden Age never before witnessed in Chile, and perhaps not, either, in all of Latin America.”
“Nor did the attacks ever let up. Not even as Pinochet helped Chile create the most successful economy in Latin America while leading the country back to democratic rule. “
“Henry Kissinger, no "right-wing extremist," observed nine years after the coup: “
“No radical revolution, no matter how bloody one thinks of Cuba, Iraq, Algeria, many African states, Vietnam’s occupation of Indochina, Khomeini’s Iran has confronted the worldwide press campaign and the global indignation evoked by the clumsy authoritarians of Santiago.”
“Was its crime in its methods, or in its position on the political spectrum? Was its sin the lack of civil freedom, or the abandonment of the leftist embrace? Why is the argument so widespread that left-wing governments are supposed to be moderated by economic assistance while conservative governments like Chile’s must be reformed by ostracism?”
“The Socialist government of Sweden cut off aid to Chile on September 13, within forty-eight hours of the coup, before its implications could possibly be known. Had it ever acted with such alacrity, or at all, against left-wing tyrants? Indeed, it had lavished aid on Hanoi through the Vietnam war and afterward.... “
“The systematic demonization of Pinochet that began immediately following his removal of Allende in 1973 prepared the way for his midnight arrest in England a few decades later. By then, the world was willing to believe just about anything about this man.”
Actually its the finding of a Chilean government comission that investigated the deaths after the end of his rule. The comission was called for and run by the leftist opposition, and conducted itself with heavy input from Allende's socialist party and a marxist guerilla group that committed acts of terror against the Pinochet government. To put it mildly, it was no sympathetic report to Pinochet. And even then all they could come up with were 2,300 deaths, most of them Allende cohorts and communist guerilla fighters who probably deserved it.
Add thousands of tortured (but not murdered) Chileans and those that fled before they were swept up and thrown out of helicopters. Displaced and dispossed because they thought that democracy was a good idea, regardless of who won elections.
Baseless hyperbole. Though some torture certainly happened, the anecdotal testimony that attests to its severity came from some highly suspect sources - particularly the Movimiento de Izquierda Revolucionaria or MIR. MIR was a Castro-backed marxist guerilla group that set up terrorist training camps in the jungles, car-bombed busy intersections full of civilians, and robbed banks at gunpoint to "redistribute" the wealth of the bourgeois to themselves. Incidentally, it was also co-founded by Allende's nephew and run by one of his cabinet ministers.
Pinochet struck back hard against MIR, and rightfully so. They were blowing up people in the streets and ambushing Chilean soldiers across the countryside. But taking their testimony on alleged brutality at face value is something akin to listening to Hezbollah's allegations against the U.S. The MIR members who died under Pinochet were violent, murderous, left wing communist terrorists. They got what was coming to them.
Oh, and one note on the exiles. They were not people who simply thought "democracy was a good idea" like you say. They were Allendist cohorts. During the coup 40,000 Allendists were rounded up in Santiago by the military. Out of that group they executed a couple hundred, virtually all of them high ranking Allendist officials and marxist guerillas. The remainder - a total that included large portions of the 20,000-man marxist guerilla army that Allende recruited and invited into Chile - were told to get the hell out of Chile and never return, or else they'd be arrested and executed. Most left, but a handful did indeed return only to get picked up in the late 70's and early 80's at marxist terror camps in the jungle where they were plotting to overthrow Pinochet's government. And, as promised, they were promptly executed. Pinochet gave them a warning and was benevolent to do so. They abused it, thinking there'd be no consequences if they returned and started setting off bombs in crowds of civilians. Thanks to Pinochet, they know better now.
Will Generalismo Franco attend his funeral? Or is he still dead?
I know people who fled Chile the eve of the coup. 20 minutes after they left, the army was there to take this man, his wife AND they 3 young children to one of those mass graves. His more distant relative related the story when he returned after Pinochet stepped down. The guy was evil. You are a savage for posting what you did. Children do not deserve death because the powers that be demand it. Only a brute would support such an idea.
Yep, tho Machiavelli covered all that quite a few centuries ago. Personally, while I like pretty coeds, the naive ones that want to take my personal property deserve the fate they get as they put their grubby fingers on other's belongings (by supporting the ideology).
The commies got what they deserved, and, while not pretty, it was far better than what Communists would have done. Trust me, I know, I grew up in that world.
A lot of far greater evil was done in the name Communism. Check with anyone growing up in Eastern/Southern Europe before the Berlin Wall fell. Innocents were caught within the geopolitical whirlwinds of that time on all sides. As ugly as it is, we don't condemn US and UK for firebombing Germany during WWII, nor condemn the use of nuclear arms against Japan. It's the same thing. Innocents died because (geopolitical) powers that be demanded it. It is the world the we live in. The reason demands that the lesser evils be chosen. Tho I don't envy those that must make those choices.
I am trying to make a bet with my father.
The Miami Herald's headline read "Chilean Dictator Dead at 91" when reporting this story.
My bet is that when Fidel dies, it will read: "Cuban Leader Dead at __."
He said that was sucker's bet and won't take it.
If you get rid of communists you are a dictator, if you are a communist, you are a liberator...according to American mainstream media that is.
Really. That's a good one. Apparently you haven't met any.
I grew up under Communism. If you think 'civilized' ways can in any way 'put down' hard-core ideological belivers (communist or islamist, they are the *same*), you may want to re-think your world outlook. Yes, what you find there is the reality of the world we live in. The sooner one realizes that fact, and applies Machiavellian thought process to it, the better one fares in the reality.
Best post of the thread.
If it had, then that individual would be demonized today for killing a few thousand commies.
But unfortunately, Cuba never had a Pinochet, and those commies, left unkilled, are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of my compatriots...yet, no world Court is demanding that Castro be brough to justice.
Here's what a Cuban Pinochet would have stopped before it happened:
Executed 18,000
Extrajudicial Assassinations 1,000
Dissappeared 250
Died in prison for lack of medical attention 50
Murdered in prison by guards 500
Extrajudicial assassinations of women, for different causes 150
Subtotal for extrajudicial killings 20,400
Political prisoners who reportedly committed suicide in prison 200
Died at sea attempting to flee (based on US Coast Guard estimates) 83,000
Cubans killed in "internationalist-solidarity" wars in Africa 10,000
Rest in Peace Augusto Pinochet.
That's civil war territory. And one can hardly associate
'human decency' with what went on during civil war. The Republic is worth fighting for, just as our forefathers did. The day we give that up for 'human decency', is the day we give up our freedoms to someone who decides they'll be more brutal than what we could be. Are you willing to accept subjugation, if you will cede our ideals ?
Amen brother.
Then they would have to die.
If you, like me, grew up in the thucking USSR - you might have been so "savage" as to volunteer for shooting the commies, whenever an opportunity arose. To dispel you naivete, commies in power behave and look a bit different from the commies out of power.
Something that's never been confirmed.
"...and was working on developing weapons even WE agreed Chile shouldn't have."
He sold them to us.
Communism has been responsible for the deaths of nearly 100 million people, I don't see killing communists as a bad thing.
Do you?
If you could go back in time today, to a week or so before 9/11/2001, would you assassinate those terrorists?
"Pinochet's legacy, strongest economy in South America and a functioning democracy. What's Castro's legacy?"
No comparison: Chile has an export that the world wants (and I note that you do not deny that it's current economic strength relies on the price of copper); Cuba only has cigars (declining market) and doctors (who also have to work as waiters and taxi drivers to make ends meet).
I am NOT advocating Castro, but frankly while on the subject, he could have been co-opted to the capitalist world years ago through trade (as the Chinese were), and you would have no trouble with Castro if he was a capitalist dictator, would you?
Killing little girls is not something any man should do, ever. I'm not talking about collateral damage in war. I'm talking about lining them up, putting bullets in their heads and dropping them in mass graves. Only a sub-human would be willing to do that. It's just plain wrong. Aligning oneself with the 'lesser' evil is still evil.
When you acquire a few decades of experience about sub-humans, then you might have something to say on the topic which could be worth listening to. Not earlier.
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