Posted on 11/10/2006 1:22:09 PM PST by madprof98
73.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Sigh. Are you suggesting that Mr. Haggard is beyond salvation?
Please. The sheep should not blindly follow the wrong shepherd. Haggard is a wake-up call for the new big box cheap grace church in America.
I do pray that Haggard comes out with an awesome testimony after we turn him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh.
Of course not. The Blood is more than sufficient. But we allow me to share with you a few words:
Let us go forward, then, to mature teaching and leave behind us the first lessons of the Christian message. We should not lay again the foundation of turning away from useless works and believing in God; of the teaching about baptisms and the laying on of hands; of the resurrection of the dead and the eternal judgment. Let us go forward! And this is what we will do, if God allows. For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God's light; they tasted heaven's gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit; they knew from experience that God's word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame. God blesses the soil which drinks in the rain that often falls on it and which grows plants that are useful to those for whom it is cultivated. But if it grows thorns and weeds, it is worth nothing; it is in danger of being cursed by God and will be destroyed by fire.
(Heb 6:1-8)
Note: I didn't write that.
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I don't brush it off, and I don't think anyone else here is saying that either.
Then perhaps you should reel in your arrogant presumptions about being Haggard's appointed judge.
"What is an unSaved man doing selling Salvation?"
First, "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox as he treads out the corn". It is no problem whatsoever for the preacher to be paid for taking on the yoke of ministering to the flock.
However, that is the minor point. The larger one is the quote I titled. Consider that St. Paul said "I know there is a crown laid up for me." That is, there is Salvation awaiting him, but he also says "I have run the race to the finish", meaning that now that he is about to die and assuming he dies still fully committed to faith in Jesus Christ, then the crown of Salvation will be granted him. I suspect many read this passage to say that Paul knows he is Saved. For instance, I suspect that I Cor 9:24-27 is used for this exact purpose, to relate the notion of the crown to something Paul can know he has achieved, once he has [kept] under his body and [brought] it into subjection. After all, he is worried 'lest that by any means when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.'
I can see how that sounds like the proper justification for judging and disposing of Ted Haggard. Did not Paul elsewhere also say "Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou has heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me;of whom are Phygellus and Hemogenes." Paul also writes that he has given an unworthy preacher over to Satan. Read literally that says, if a ministering brother prove false, then reject him utterly.
But we cannot do so with Pastor Ted, Appy. How many times are we to forgive a brother who asks for it, seven times seven? 'Jesus saith unto [Peter], "I say not unto thee, 'Until seven times', but 'Until seventy times seven."' [St. Matt 18:22) Pastor Ted has repented, he has admitted fault, he has by this admission acclaimed the Word to be supreme and not affected by his own falseness: the Lord will be true even if all men are false, and Pastor Ted has affirmed this. That is, to me, the necessary element for forgiveness. So I grant it, gladly.
One further point I feel constrained to make: I cannot assent to the notion that any of can know we are Saved. I do not believe Paul thought that, though many of his texts in isolation lean that direction, even Romans 7. But you make the correct corollary that arises if Salvation could be known before death: such a person could not henceforth sin. Against this I cite Romans 7:14-18. Paul says he knows what is the right thing (that is, he knows what God has expressed as His will and what He has not) but he admits he knows not how to do it. That says to me that he knows, even after years of self-rebuke, immersion in God's word, preaching it in season and out, he can still sin.
So can Pastor Ted. So can you. So can I. We cannot KNOW we are Saved. We live in hope, we affirm our faith and we seek His grace but we also hold ourselves low, for such things as passing judgment on another man unto damnation in the face of his clean and evident repentance is beyond our skill and outside what God has assigned us to do, no matter who we are.
Now, what about those who presume to preach but who defy repentance, say many of the clergy in The Episcopal Church? I see their apostasy as a far worse sin than any of the lusts so graphically, luridly and morbidly assigned to Pastor Ted. They revel in their defiance of God's clear word and presume to strike I Tim and II Tim from the Bible by avoidance rather than having even so much courage as to literally eliminate those texts. There they still stand in Episcopal bibles, open rejections of the path that church has taken. I think that these folk openly reject the notion that there is anything for which they need to consider repenting and, as such, I have warrant to do with them as Paul did with the apostates of his time, to give them over to Satan and consider then excommunicate.
I hope that this discussion clarifies the distinctions here and pray fervently that you find the charity to accept Pastor Ted's repentance and apology. He may have a terrible time ever ministering in any official capacity again, but his own experience with grievous sin, if gracefully understood and used as a tool to teach abstinence and faithfulness to God could also prove a powerful ministry in and of itself. We never know how God intends to make use of us for His purposes and we err if we presume to dictate what those purposes and means could be.
God be with you, brother.
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