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Google to Convert HQ to Solar Power
Associated Press via MyWay.com ^ | October 17, 2006 | Michael Liedtke

Posted on 10/17/2006 6:31:54 AM PDT by RayChuang88

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To: Realism
Do you rent or own your own home?

I rent because 1) I think the real estate market is overvalued in my area right now and 2) I don't want to tie up 90% of my wealth in a single risky asset (i.e. a condo). Basic modern portfolio theory says that someone with my level of savings (I just finished school and am starting out, so I don't have much) is much better off renting and investing in a diversified portoflio of stocks and bonds.

Which is the better long term investment?

Renting is not an investment. Buying a house or condo is an investment, but by no means the only investment available. If you choose to invest in a house or condo, you have to forego investment in something else. The choice, therefore, is not just renting vs. in owning, but rather investing in a single piece of real estate or investing in a diversified portfolio of other assets, including stocks, bonds, and perhaps even diversified real estate investment trusts. For someone like me, with local real estate prices being what they are, investing in a diversified portoflio of securities and other assets is a much better deal.

Do you believe that solar panels crumble and fall off the roof once they pay for themselves?

No. It's just that with the current technology, istalling solar panels provides a really lousy return on your investment. The fact that it takes twenty years to recoup the costs makes it pretty obvious that an investment in solar panels has a negative net present value.

Would a house with a solar array be more attractive to most buyers than without?

Yes, but in most areas, the amount by which your house would appreciate would not cover the cost of installing the solar panels. If this were not the case, everyone would be installing panels.

I'll even bet you could easily recoup the costs plus some.

That's a bet you would lose, except perhaps in some very remote locations without ready access to the natioanl power grid.

21 posted on 10/17/2006 10:50:11 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: RayChuang88
Actually, the price of solar panels will really drop very soon thanks to solar panels made with nanotechnology particles instead of expensive-to-make silicon sheets. They're talking maybe maybe 70-80% drop in production costs.

If you're right, then the R&D necessary to make that nanotechnology a reality is what Google should be investing in. Spending money on the buying the inefficient, cost-ineffecitive panels currently available is a huge waste.

22 posted on 10/17/2006 11:03:19 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: Realism
Do you believe that solar panels crumble and fall off the roof once they pay for themselves?

My understanding is that solar panel performance degrades at about 5% per year. So after 10 - 20 years they might as well crumble and fall off, it would save the cost of removing them.

Anyone who invests on just the possibility of breaking even (no possibility of profit) in more than 7 years is an idiot.

23 posted on 10/17/2006 11:14:36 AM PDT by LeGrande
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To: curiosity
investing in a single piece of real estate or investing in a diversified portfolio of other assets

Really, Do you pay your landlord with peanuts or cash. My mortgage is $540 per month, it's been $540 for the last 14 years and $540 when I make my last payment then it's mine. Last I knew rent usually increases every couple years. Apply this concept to a generator that not only backs you up when the grid goes down but it also saves you $100 bucks a month on your utility bill and all you need is sunshine. That would be nice when the chips are down and you need the extra cash.

the amount by which your house would appreciate would not cover the cost of installing the solar panels

Your telling me you couldn't hide $30K in the price of a $200K home?

24 posted on 10/17/2006 11:27:30 AM PDT by Realism (Some believe that the facts-of-life are open to debate.....)
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To: LeGrande
My understanding is that solar panel performance degrades at about 5% per year

Sorry you've been misinformed.

25 posted on 10/17/2006 11:41:54 AM PDT by Realism (Some believe that the facts-of-life are open to debate.....)
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To: LeGrande
Anyone who invests on just the possibility of breaking even (no possibility of profit) in more than 7 years is an idiot.

LOL....

26 posted on 10/17/2006 11:51:55 AM PDT by Realism (Some believe that the facts-of-life are open to debate.....)
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To: RayChuang88
Combine that with the coming of nanotube-based supercapacitor electric storage units and the day of distributed power generation (where every home generates its own electricity and shares the excess with other users) becomes reality within ten years.

As long as we're doing this, it would be nice to eliminate the wastful conversion of AC back to DC that most electronics must do, and create standard DC plugs for most electronic devices so that homes that already generate/store power can leave it in DC form...
27 posted on 10/17/2006 11:55:40 AM PDT by beezdotcom
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To: palmer

Probably would have been cheaper to move closer to a creek.


28 posted on 10/17/2006 11:58:01 AM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: beezdotcom

Voltage.


29 posted on 10/17/2006 12:00:03 PM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: Old Professer
Voltage.

I didn't quite catch your point. Were you trying to point out that the lack of a standard voltage for household electronics is the issue, instead of merely the plugs? Okay, I'll agree - even so, if everything was capable of direct DC input, I'll wager that merely converting between different DC voltage levels would still probably be better than doing the AC/DC conversion (for locally generated power).
30 posted on 10/17/2006 12:52:19 PM PDT by beezdotcom
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To: Realism
I have a neighbor who has watched his PV performance steadily deteriorate since he bought them 5 years ago. He is now below 75% (they didn't even start at 100%) and they are warrantied for 80% for 7 years.

The company that he bought them from is blowing him off and claiming that he is not measuring correctly, or that he needs to clean them with a special solvent, or that his connections have corroded. They will send out someone to test the system at some exhorbinant rate.

The complete PV, controllers, wiring, etc. cost a lot more than he had anticipated and it produces a lot less electricity than claimed (about half).

If I take the cost of a PV system and invest it in CD's at 5% I will make more more money than any PV system will save me (and that includes all the government tax credits)
31 posted on 10/17/2006 1:21:08 PM PDT by LeGrande
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To: Realism
Really, Do you pay your landlord with peanuts or cash. My mortgage is $540 per month, it's been $540 for the last 14 years and $540 when I make my last payment then it's mine.

You're lucky. If I wanted to buy the equivalent of what I'm renting, I'd have to put 60K down and pay around 2000 per month. If I rent I pay 1300 per month. That means by renting I get to invest 60K now and $700 every month that I otherwise would not be able to do. Of course, that $700 in savings per month goes down over time as rents increase, but I still will be saving for a long while. That 60K and savings on my monthly payment will grow as I invest it and is mine whenever I want to take it out. If the real estate and stock markets preform according to their long-run historical averages, I'm much better off renting and investing the downpayment and the amount I save on my monthly payment, even allowing for the increase in rents over time as well as the tax deduction I would get if I bought.

By renting, I'm also not exposing myself to local real estate risk. If I were to buy a home now, my entire nest egg would be tied up in the Seattle real estate markets, which is a much more risky proposition than having my nest egg in a diversified portoflio of stocks and bonds, though being young I don't have much in bonds.

Of course, this may all change if real estate prices decline, which I think will happen. If they drop low enough relative to rents, then it may be worthwhile financially to rent. As of now, however, it's not.

Apply this concept to a generator that not only backs you up when the grid goes down but it also saves you $100 bucks a month on your utility bill and all you need is sunshine. That would be nice when the chips are down and you need the extra cash.

Maybe, but you'd have a lot more extra cash if you took the money you would have spent on the solar panels and put it into a CD.

Your telling me you couldn't hide $30K in the price of a $200K home?

Exactly. If it were that easy, everyone would do it. People aren't doing it, so obviously the increase in price you get on your house doesn't cover the cost of solar panels.

32 posted on 10/17/2006 1:24:25 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: LeGrande
I have a neighbor who has watched his PV performance steadily deteriorate since he bought them 5 years ago.

Hmmm, I have 28 Shell 165 watt panels with a 25 year on them. So far they have out performed their spec. I'll get back to you in a few years. Sure you can buy $30K in CD's but odds are you won't. People invest differently, I prefer capital improvements on things that I can see, touch and use.

33 posted on 10/17/2006 1:43:09 PM PDT by Realism (Some believe that the facts-of-life are open to debate.....)
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To: curiosity
I'd have to put 60K down and pay around 2000 per month.

Gulp.... I guess there's a lot to be said for living out in the sticks. I'm beginning to see your point of view.

34 posted on 10/17/2006 1:48:29 PM PDT by Realism (Some believe that the facts-of-life are open to debate.....)
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To: Realism
Hmmm, I have 28 Shell 165 watt panels with a 25 year on them. So far they have out performed their spec. I'll get back to you in a few years. Sure you can buy $30K in CD's but odds are you won't. People invest differently, I prefer capital improvements on things that I can see, touch and use.

Well I try to invest in appreciating assets. I have a lot more than $30k invested. So at my standard rate of return that would be something like $3,600 per year. Even at 5% that would be $1,500 a year which I am positive is more than your depreciating asset is earning you. And in 25 years I will still have the $30k.

35 posted on 10/17/2006 2:05:15 PM PDT by LeGrande
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To: Realism

Not that long term.

The solar cells die over time.

The solar cells don't last much longer than their payback time.


36 posted on 10/17/2006 2:07:47 PM PDT by DB (©)
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To: Realism
Yeah, real estate prices here are unsustainable. They're bound to come down. The question is how long.

Lots of developers are converting apartments into condos. I think it's only a matter of time before condo prices start coming down. We'll see, though.

37 posted on 10/17/2006 2:25:51 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: DB
The solar cells don't last much longer than their payback time.

Which most likely means they're a negative NPV proposition.

Google's managers are wasting shareholder money in order to make themselves feel good. It's politically correct looting of shareholders.

38 posted on 10/17/2006 2:28:40 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: beezdotcom

Actually, it's better to have AC because you can transmit electric power a lot further with AC than with DC.


39 posted on 10/17/2006 9:12:11 PM PDT by RayChuang88
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To: RayChuang88
Actually, it's better to have AC because you can transmit electric power a lot further with AC than with DC.

It's better for the electric company to have AC, because they have a need to transmit power over long distances. If all the power is being locally stored, generated and used, it's more efficient to leave everything in DC.
40 posted on 10/18/2006 5:13:28 AM PDT by beezdotcom
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