Posted on 10/10/2006 4:04:27 PM PDT by wagglebee
"Obviously, the pathologist's comments that she could not see were not borne out by reality and thus his assessment must represent sampling error. ..." [emphasis added]
Translation: Dr. Thogmartin was in error. And hey, that's all right, we're all human. Sampling error.
Dr. Hammesfahr, and his colleague, Dr. Maxfield, had tested Terri when she was alive and ascertained that Terri's vision was impaired, but she could see a short distance. I hardly need tell you that it is far more reliable (and scientific) to test a patient's vision while alive than post-mortem. In fact there is no test post mortem. That would be like listening to the phone after the line's gone dead. All an autopsy can do is gauge the amount of damage in areas believed to control this decedent's vision and make an educated guess about the decedent's sight. It can't be tested or proven.
A third witness to Terri's sightedness was Michael's doctor, Ronald Cranford. We all saw and heard Dr. Cranford himself say this to Terri: "YOU SEE THAT, don't you, huh? YOU DO FOLLOW THAT A BIT, don't you, huh?" "That's good!"
(The video is linked at #192 for anyone who is tuning in late, or who wishes to review it. You'll see that Dr. Cranford's words match Terri's eye movements and tracking.)
Dr. Hammesfahr continued, "The videotapes clearly showed her seeing, and even Dr. Cranford, for the husband, commented to her that, when she could see the balloon, she could follow it with her eyes as per his request."
These were all first-hand bedside findings by three trained neurological observers. They were all direct observation of the living patient.
Momof9, you are a nurse and trained medical observer. We could use another professional opinion here. Would you please look at the video linked in #192 and tell us if you think Terri has vision? Spunkets claims it is impossible because Dr. Thogmartin says so. I think we could use a little better evidence than that.
Michael spent a fortune making sure she couldn't.
Fortunately for Michael, it was Terri's own rehab money that he spent to be sure she didn't get rehab. He didn't have to spend a dime of his own.
Amen. It is fundamental law in America -- is, not "was" -- that we do not execute innocent citizens. Today's judicial misconduct traces back to the appalling Dred Scott decision by the Taney court. More homework for those interested. This is a long read and absolutely worth it!
Capacity to feel pain is supposed to be enough to rule out PVS under the legal rules. We can't go around killing people who feel pain, now, can we? That would be making them miserable as we put them out of their misery. We have to be humane about whom we kill. The ones we kill are required to be perfectly oblivious to their surroundings. We hope.
The Exit Protocol used for Terri specified morphine in significant doses for two possible purposes, perhaps cross-purpose, the first being palliative, pain-killing with the presumption thatTerri did feel pain, and the second to accelerate death through shutdown of the system. The first is bad enough, reflecting she felt pain but the second one is Menghelean, (to coin a new word) the proactive killing process.
We note that death row prisoners whine about the needle prick hurting, but the results of the morphine overdose are the same as the lethal injection the bad guys think is unfair.
Another analogy may be as a lawn mower engine is slowing down and idling roughly and one opens the choke to kill the engine.
Ethical concerns over death by dehydration
Judge Lynch of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court argued that death by dehydration symptoms was "cruel and violent" in his opinion on the 1986 Brophy case:
* The mouth would dry out and become caked or coated with thick material.
* The lips would become parched and cracked.
* The tongue would swell, and might crack.
* The eyes would recede back into their orbits and the cheeks would become hollow.
* The lining of the nose might crack and cause the nose to bleed.
* The skin would hang loose on the body and become dry and scaly.
* The urine would become highly concentrated, leading to burning of the bladder.
* The lining of the stomach would dry out and the sufferer would experience dry heaves and vomiting.
* The body temperature would become very high.
* The brain cells would dry out, causing convulsions.
* The respiratory tract would dry out, and the thick secretions that would result could plug the lungs and cause death.
* At some point within five days to three weeks, the major organs, including the lungs, heart, and brain, would give out and the patient would die.
"Untreated severe dehydration may result in seizures, permanent brain damage, or death." -- Medline, a service of the U.S. National Library of Medicine and the National Institutes of Health.
"At first, dehydration stimulates the thirst center of the brain, causing a person to drink more fluids. If water intake cannot keep up with water loss, dehydration becomes more severe. Sweating decreases, and less urine is excreted. Water moves from inside the cells to the bloodstream to maintain the needed amount of blood (blood volume) and blood pressure. If dehydration continues, tissues of the body begin to dry out, and cells begin to shrivel and malfunction. Symptoms of mild to moderate dehydration include thirst, reduced sweating, reduced skin elasticity, reduced urine production, and dry mouth. Brain cells are particularly susceptible to more severe levels of dehydration. Consequently, confusion is one of the best indicators that dehydration has become severe. Very severe dehydration can lead to coma."
-- Merck Manuals online medical library
Dehydration confounds the assessment of brain atrophy
Dehydration confounds the assessment of brain atrophy T. Duning, MD*, S. Kloska, MD*, O. Steinsträter, PhD, H. Kugel, PhD, W. Heindel, MD and S. Knecht, MD
From the Departments of Neurology (Drs. Duning, Kloska, Steinsträter, and Knecht) and Clinical Radiology (Drs. Kloska, Kugel, and Heindel), University of Münster, Germany.
Address correspondence and reprint requests to Dr. Thomas Duning, University of Muenster, Department of Neurology, Albert-Schweitzer-Str. 22, 48129 Muenster, Germany; e-mail: duningt@uni-muenster.de
Computerized brain volumetry has potential value for diagnosis and the follow-up evaluation of degenerative disorders. A potential pitfall of this method is the extent of physiologic variations in brain volume. The authors show that dehydration and rehydration can significantly change brain volume: lack of fluid intake for 16 hours decreased brain volume by 0.55% (SD, ±0.69), and after rehydration total cerebral volume increased by 0.72% (SD, ±0.21).
Source, please?
:-)
Another bit of testimony worth chewing on. Dr. Nelson (the autopsy brain specialist) was asked whether his findings ruled out Terri interacting with her family and her doctors? No, it doesn't, he replied.
Wasn't the Shiavo case resolved after the autopsy that showed her brain to be in a severly damaged condition?
&&&&&
The autopsy was done on a body that had been deprived of fluid for thirteen days. Although a CT scan existed showing some shrinkage of her brain during her post-trauma life, consider what trying to mummify someone would do to all of her cells.
Grape>raisin
No autopsy will ever explain starving to death a person who can breathe, open her eyes, turn her head, make sounds, etc.
"Food and water are neither artificial, nor immoral. Depriving anyone, even a lowly animal, of food and water is extremely immoral."
Bingo. Taking someone off of machines that are keeping them alive is one thing. Refusing to give them food and water is murder, no matter WHAT state they're in.
I, for one, will NEVER forget the court system sanctioning this outrage upon a fellow human being, and I will never forget our politicians who either supported it, or tried to stop it, but then shrugged and said: "Well, it's over, let's move on...".
Wow, that is making the point in far fewer words than the U.S. government uses :-)
It wouldn't surprise me that Hollyweird will probably make a movie depicting Michael Shiavo as a crusading hero - they've pulled tripe like that before!
Table 3.1 Causes of CVI(cortical vision impairment>
· brain damage as a result of lack of oxygen to the brain. This results in changes to the grey matter of the brain which then ceases to function appropriately · cerebral haemorrhage · cardiac arrest · near miss cot death · shunt malfunction · hypoglycaemia · uraemia · dehydration ·
Dehydration causes cortical blindness. 1
===========================================================
"In connection with a transient dehydration the patient showed a sudden bilateral cortical blindness."
You should always include Cranford's final assesment and conclusion regarding that video. It was that Terri was completely unresponsive to visual stimuli. That is what matters, not the capture of the off the cuff, preliminary comment by Cranford.
I know...that's the debate whether she was really conscious or not. Only God knows the answer to that one.
People tried (and her husband's lawyer succeeded) to combine "not conscious" with "brain-dead" into one condition. We all are close to "not conscious" every time we go to sleep. We breathe all night long, and so did Terri. Her "night", and the state of the people described in the article at the top of this thread, just lasted for years. She was brain-damaged, but not brain-dead.
That was what was debated - like I said, no one really knows but assumes whatever side bolsters their case. Not to see she was or wasn't brain-dead - just the way this whole affair went.
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