Bah! Thor is the Supreme Commander!
Posted on 09/13/2006 10:47:08 AM PDT by Lorianne
Outside of our own existence and God's, however, everything (including the existence of the physical universe outside of ourselves) is perceived via the senses rather than experienced directly, and is therefore subject to doubt.
In other words, it requires a leap of faith to believe that what our senses tell us is real is truly real, which is of course the basis of the scientific method. Conversely, we know our individual selves and God exist because we may experience their reality without a leap of faith. We do not see ourselves with our physical eyes; we simply Are. We do not hear God with our physical ears; God simply Is.
Bah! Thor is the Supreme Commander!
> There are two entities whose existence may be certainly known: our selves, and God.
According to the arguement in your previous post... you *cannot* "know" that this "God" person of whom you speak exists, and you've got to be pretty shaky on your own existence.
> We do not hear God with our physical ears; God simply Is.
Uh-huh. Seems more like you *assume* that this "God" simply Is.
Looks like Loki's been messing with you.
Nice to see you back from Niflheim, OBB.
We can also deduce God's existence using reason, inferring (although we cannot demonstrate) His existence from the order, structure, and contingency of the physical universe around us.
The Catholic Church teaches that God desires all men to enjoy His salvation, even those who for whatever reason cannot accept His existence on faith. Many Westerners have been trained in scientism -- the belief system which holds as real only those entities whose existence is demonstrable from sensory evidence (i.e. the "if ah cain't poke it with a stick, it ain't real" school of thought) and so cannot bring themselves to believe in a God Who cannot be measured. (Of course, any being who could be measured would hardly rate the title "God"!) For those who sincerely desire to know whether or not God exists, but who cannot overcome their training in scientism, a method has been devised to allow them to discover God in an acceptable way. This is the so-called "atheist's prayer":
God
I sincerely desire to know you.
If you exist,
Please make Your existence known to me
In a manner I can accept.
If one prays this prayer with a sincere and truthful heart, God will in His own way and in His own time make His existence obviously and undeniably plain to the seeker.
I really don't have anything further to say on this topic, so I'll just leave it at that. Thanks for the conversation.
> We can know God exists the same way we know our own selves exist: directly, by personal experience. This is the so-called "epiphany" about which so much has been written; such an experience leaves the person who perceives it forever changed at the most fundamental level
Ah. Well, then you'll have to add a wholoe slew of other beings and phenomena to your list of the Objectively Real... not just "God," but Odin, Zeus, Allah, Gaia, Zeta Reticulans, elves, fairies, Commander Spock, Darth Vader, ghosts, trolls, Big Ideas, Strokes Of Genius, Flashes Of Inspiration.
> We can also deduce God's existence using reason, inferring (although we cannot demonstrate) His existence from the order, structure, and contingency of the physical universe around us.
Oh. You mean *Odin,* not this "God" fellow of whom you speak.
I prayed a similar prayer to that some 25 years ago.
Things then happened in my life in which God revealed Herself as the Great Mother Isis, of which (in the context of this thread) Freya of the Aesir is but one aspect.
Funny. Joking aside though, God is there and will reveal Himself if you sincerely want to see Him.
Think of it this way: if you sincerely want to know God, and yet He hides Himself from you, then He can hardly hold you responsible for not believing in Him. Keep looking.
God revealed Herself in a manner I could accept. And with that I am satisfied.
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