Posted on 08/01/2006 7:06:01 AM PDT by LurkedLongEnough
Dear drb9,
Please don't misinterpret my admiration for Lazamataz's adherence to his principle for approval or acceptance of his principle.
However, lots of bluster about, but when you present them with a specific set of circumstances, all the exceptions, caveats, and reasons why that set of circumstances isn't really what they're talking about come out.
Although many people would consider it barbaric to state that a person who is raped or enslaved has no recourse to the law because they're here illegally, Lazamataz, to his credit, has not flinched from that conclusion, which is consistent with his overall principle.
Give credit where credit is due.
sitetest
(Sorry for the double post :) )
Sorry Darlin'. It doesn't work that way.
Don't get me wrong. If it were left up too me, we'd built a 40 fence and catapult every illegal we caught back over it, toot sweet!
But the Constitution is based on common law where everyone has basic, unalienable rights regardless of their nationality.
Dear detsaoT,
"This does lead to a quandry, though—How can one be sure that someone who lied to enter the country, would tell the truth on the stand?"
Of course, the greater quandary is that, knowing that they will be deported as part of the process, most illegal immigrants will not come forward against slavers, murderers, and rapists. Is it fair to say that you're okay with that result?
Thanks,
sitetest
Don't come into this country illegally, and no one has to get medieval on yer ass.
Do you go to church on Sundays and pretend that you are a good, charitable person?
No, I'm one of those Evil JOOOOooooos so I never go to Church. However, you won't find a kinder, sweeter person than me. I seek to be of service to my fellow man whenever I can.
Sometimes that service is harsh, so that you might benefit from the lesson.
Do things the right way, and you won't get yer weenie whacked.
He did say" go and sin no more"!
Yours is a false premise.
If you are an illegal immigrant, and you are faced with the prospect of ZERO protection under the law, would you:
A) Stay and take your chances, or
B) Run For The BorderTM?
I'm choosin' B)
(b) I've never declared "open season" on any individuals. On the other hand, every individual MUST be aware of the ramifications of the decisions they make. Ignorance cannot possibly remove all of the risks from entering this country illegally, and we shouldn't be expected to bend over backwards to do the same.
(c) Jesus also had quite a few thoughts on obeying the law of the land in which you live (Recall "Render unto Cæsar?") as well, but you don't see me trumping those out to try and gain some kind of moral supremacy. The fact that you insist on bringing irrelevancies into this argument to try and make those who disagree with you look inhuman speaks volumes.
You may be happy with this wave of immigrants crossing the border—who's to say? I can easily imagine my life without them, as that's exactly how my youth was spent. I'd love to see this country return to that condition, eventually. As always, you're more than welcome to disagree. Disagreements are one thing we'll always have here on FR.
Most respectfully,
~dt~
Make me Brigadier Infantry General, Supreme Head Imperial Tyrant (B.I.G.S.H.I.T. for short) and it would would that way within about a week. ;^)
(a) A majority, in poll after poll, DO want the border closed. The goons we send to Washington ignore that. Are we being fairly represented? Your snide "losing side of the vote" comment is meaningless if our representatives are not doing what we're sending them to Washington to do, is it not?
Well, the simpler solution actually involves running and chainsaws and shrieking.
But my way will work.
Dear detsaoT,
"The solution to the medical question is simple—Those treated in a public facility who are unable to pay for their medical treatment are entered into a period of mandatory servitude towards the State which paid for their treatment, until such time as their bill has been paid off with labor."
LOL! How generous of you! ;-)
Would this apply to those who live here legally, as well, including citizens? To someone who couldn't afford health insurance for themselves or their families?
When my mother died, she was in the hospital for six days. It cost $114,000. At the minimum wage, subtracting out, say, $500 per month for room and board (that's a pretty good deal, right?), our illegal immigrant (or any other person to whom we apply this principle) will be working for 25 years to pay back the principal on a bill of that magnitude. Is the state charging any interest?
Of course, this appears to conflict with that whole 13th Amendment thing...
sitetest
Laz, you are SUCH a stinker!
:-)
Forgive me for intruding on your point, Ma'am, but were you aware that all aliens were denied the right to petition or participate in the Federal Court system until after the 1940's? I'd argue that neither the Constitution nor "common law" offers any such right of writ, but rather the notion that "anyone can sue" is one bestowed upon us by the U.S. Code (see my post above), a product of Federal legislation created by cretins in Congress.
As always, it's my pleasure to be,
Most Respectfully,
~dt~
Dear Lazamataz,
It depends what I thought I'd find on the other side of the border.
I expect a lot of folks will come here or stay here and take their chances until something bad happens to them or one of their family. Many of them will stay even after that happens.
Many illegal immigrants already believe that if they come forward to the authorities when a crime is committed against them that they will be deported. Thus, lots of folks are already operating under that assumption. Yet, they continue to come here and stay here.
I guess a lot of folks choose A).
sitetest
It's one thing to have a payment plan and pay down your debts. It's another to skip out on the hospital and leave innocent Taxpayers with the bill. The 13th's restriction on involuntary servitude excludes service due as a punishment for crime, and last I checked, stealing was still a crime.
(Of course, considering that we don't even force inmates into any kind of service any longer sorta kiboshes my whole idea, but I hope you get the point anyway. The British had absolutely the right idea on the punishment of crime. Too bad we don't have the moral fortitude to follow in the footsteps of our ancestors any longer...)
Regards,
~dt~
That's what life is. Make your choices and live with the consequences.
Mine is a theoretical argument. It'll never happen. It's allowed me the chance to explore that option with all of you. There are some compelling arguments in it's favor ... it will reduce illegal immigration in the long-term. The downside is that it's harsh.
But OTOH, life is harsh. Deal with life on life's terms.
Dear detsaoT,
Actually, for someone who winds up in the hospital with a debt that he cannot realistically pay back (especially if we charge a minimal amount of interest), we do have a legal facility. It's called bankruptcy.
Thus, in that this is precisely a kind of circumstance for which the bankruptcy law was designed and intended, folks should be able to escape your proposed system through the use of bankruptcy law.
As well, generally, the inability to repay a debt isn't considered theft, although there are exceptions. Everyone who grants credit (I own a business and I grant credit) knows that if you grant credit and someone can't pay you, you can't have them arrested for theft, generally speaking.
sitetest
Dear Lazamataz,
"...it will reduce illegal immigration in the long-term."
As you pointed out, "it'll never happen."
Thus, your quote should read, "...it would reduce illegal immigration in the long-term."
And it might.
So would just shooting illegal immigrants on the spot when identified. Or issuing hunting licenses to persons to hunt them down and shoot them.
sitetest
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