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House slates vote on raising minimum wage (bowing to moderates, seeking to defuse campaign issue)
AP on Yahoo ^ | 7/28/06 | Andrew Taylor - ap

Posted on 07/28/2006 9:31:35 AM PDT by NormsRevenge

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To: ThinkDifferent
You would have loved the 1890's. Or maybe not if it was your child working 12 hours a day, and your wife working for less, and you working for only the days you were young and very strong and had no accidents.

the horrors that were visited on the working class are unknown to us today, all the while the "captains of industry" were amassing fortunes that staggers the imaginations and plagues us still in the form of liberal trust/endowments.

101 posted on 07/28/2006 2:04:48 PM PDT by reflecting
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To: reflecting

We're better off than we were in the 1890's not because of government regulation, but because of greatly increased wealth. If all labor regulations were abolished today, somebody trying to open a sweatshop with child labor in the US would have few takers, because we have so many better opportunities.


102 posted on 07/28/2006 2:10:13 PM PDT by ThinkDifferent
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To: reflecting
I am not advocating communism, equal pay for all labor, far from it!

That's good to know, but not what I was getting at. You asked what determined the value, and I said the market does. A doctor is "worth" more than a toaster maker.

yes I would.

With this statement, you have in effect determined that you do not wish to enter into an employment contract with a particular individual because he/she brings little or no economic value into your business.

But by doing so, you have effective violated the Golden Rule by denying him the potential for earning a living. You have put your needs above the needs of a potential worker.

My point is, all men are NOT created equal and neither are all jobs. You would not even consider running a business where you hired every individual who walked in at the same pay rate. Forcing you to pay an arbitrary wage is no more sensible than forcing you to hire every applicant because "all workers are entitled to make a living."

103 posted on 07/28/2006 2:12:33 PM PDT by Can i say that here?
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To: reflecting
If it is charity to pay employees a living wage then yes I say that he must do this

Well, at least you're honest. Now how are you going to make him hire employees in the first place (or not fire them), if their productivity is less than your "living wage"?

104 posted on 07/28/2006 2:13:07 PM PDT by ThinkDifferent
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To: ThinkDifferent
I understand your point, and might be persuaded to agree with you but for one insurmountable truth. While our wealth has indeed increased our hearts are the same. Human nature does not change. If suddenly there was unrestrained capitalism (no labor/wage/safety laws) here, with in a very short time the downward pressure on all labor would take us straight to China lite.

All wealth would quickly merge into fewer and fewer hands.

The wealth of the middle class is sustain by the governmental restraints on business. as is much of the safety you enjoy (government and trial lawyers (donning protective gear ;))
105 posted on 07/28/2006 2:24:19 PM PDT by reflecting
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To: NormsRevenge

The inflation rate where I live has gone up 25% in the last 5 years. And if you believe government reports on inflation, I have a bridge to sell you.


106 posted on 07/28/2006 2:28:41 PM PDT by John Lenin (It was like going to church, except Ozzy Osbourne was there)
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To: reflecting

I think you made a wrong turn on your way to DU.


107 posted on 07/28/2006 2:30:19 PM PDT by balch3
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To: reflecting
If suddenly there was unrestrained capitalism (no labor/wage/safety laws) here, with in a very short time the downward pressure on all labor would take us straight to China lite.

The vast majority of jobs pay more than the minimum wage. Why do you think this is?

108 posted on 07/28/2006 2:32:39 PM PDT by ThinkDifferent
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To: Can i say that here?
A doctor is "worth" more than a toaster maker. Yes he is but the toast maker is worth a living wage.

With this statement, you have in effect determined that you do not wish to enter into an employment contract with a particular individual because he/she brings little or no economic value into your business.

Again I am not advocating communism - everyone must be hired for an equal wage.

But by doing so, you have effective violated the Golden Rule by denying him the potential for earning a living. You have put your needs above the needs of a potential worker.

My response to the man who is of no use to my company is not to hire him but I might have a charitable obligation towards him, if he is in need. When I speak of an employee I speak of one who's labor is essitential to the profit production of the business. The person you speak of is something else all together.

My point is, all men are NOT created equal Right, but they are of equal value

and neither are all jobs. Agreed, see above.

Forcing you to pay an arbitrary wage is no more sensible than forcing you to hire every applicant because "all workers are entitled to make a living." Forcing me to pay a living wage to all employees is what sepates us from slave holding states.

109 posted on 07/28/2006 2:40:50 PM PDT by reflecting
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To: reflecting
[But my thoughts are more along the lines that "the heart of man is deceitfully wicked above all things" by that and with 50 years of observation it seems quite clear that men unless restrained will abuse other men... they will work 8 year old children 12 hours a day... they will pay women 1/3 that of men for the same job (notice I said same not equivalent)... they will house workers in shacks, they will toss out an injured man and replace him with a healthy man... an old man for a young... they will build for themselves golden mansions in pristine locals,and they wil do so thinking all the while that they are moral men]


Some will do this. MOST WON'T. I respectfully submit that your view of others is way to cynical and unrealistic. I know from my own experience that your perception is wrong.
110 posted on 07/28/2006 2:45:07 PM PDT by spinestein (Follow "The Bronze Rule")
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To: balch3
Really, do you think it is only democrats who think the health of the middle class is a necessary component to our republic. Could it be that even some very conservative people realize that just as government has a roll in protecting working class people.

And might I add, if I and people like me belong at DU, then there will not be a single republican in office in six years.

111 posted on 07/28/2006 2:48:11 PM PDT by reflecting
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To: spinestein

I just hate when people tell me I need to read so and so, but with a grimace I suggest you look at what labor conditions were like less than 100 years ago right here.....that is not cynicism that is cold hard history... because wealthy people could they did...and then went and taught Sunday School.,p. On what will you base that men won't when we have the very clear record that they have...


112 posted on 07/28/2006 2:54:35 PM PDT by reflecting
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To: ThinkDifferent
because of minimum wage laws, and unions and some competition for some labor?
113 posted on 07/28/2006 2:56:24 PM PDT by reflecting
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To: reflecting
When I speak of an employee I speak of one who's labor is essential to the profit production of the business. The person you speak of is something else all together.

The person of which I speak is the person who would be out looking for a minimum wage job. You don't want him for your business. Who does? He's going to find employement at the bottom of the barrel.

You call him, "something else all together", I call him a free man with all the opportunities afforded to any of us who live in this great country. No one should should ever be satisfied with being the lowest common denominator, but it doesn't change the fact that someone will be. No one "owes" them a living.

114 posted on 07/28/2006 2:58:35 PM PDT by Can i say that here?
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To: Can i say that here?
Alright then, you tell me how what has already occurred would not occur again if there were no wage laws... in your system the man you speak of will not have a job because of his sloth... but also the men I speak of will barely have bread because of the others greed
115 posted on 07/28/2006 3:11:35 PM PDT by reflecting
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To: NormsRevenge
As usual, the Republicans rush in to pass important legislation right before the election.

too bad it's the democrats' agenda.

116 posted on 07/28/2006 3:16:55 PM PDT by GoBucks2002
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To: reflecting
because of minimum wage laws

Non sequitor. The question is why almost all jobs pay more than the legally required minimum.

and unions

Most employees aren't in a union.

and some competition for some labor

Ah, third time's the charm.

117 posted on 07/28/2006 3:23:04 PM PDT by ThinkDifferent
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To: ThinkDifferent
wage laws - because that is where the floor is set and thus jobs worth more than the floor pay more than the floor..

true they are not but it was the work of unions that set for all of us a standard and expectations...if not for them you would still be doing the books in the very cold, with a stub of a candle, with only Christmas day off, and little Tim would not be cover by any insurance plan

competion - glad to get one right.

Now your turn...Why do the Nike workers in china only get $.13 per day....?

118 posted on 07/28/2006 3:30:54 PM PDT by reflecting
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To: reflecting
I'll admit to not being a history expert, but my assumption would be that 100 years ago, what was taking place was an improvement over 100 earlier? Our society is steadily increasing in education, productivity, and the ability to move from one class to the next. The idea that removing a wage law would suddenly reduce all but the upper echelon the chattel seems simplistic and shows little respect for the adaptability of educated people in large numbers.

but also the men I speak of will barely have bread because of the others greed

It sounds as if you feel that only the greedy and the cut-throat are capable of being an employer. Every scenario you have presented supposes that the man offering employement is bad, and the man seeking a job is good.

The presence of good men in the business world produces its own type of market force. Your wage offer will put you in competition with other businesses who seek high quality workers.

You stated that you would pay a living wage. Great. I hope you would be able to find employees worth your cost and I hope your conscience doesn't haunt you for turning men away from your high paying job offers.

119 posted on 07/28/2006 3:40:44 PM PDT by Can i say that here?
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To: reflecting
Why do the Nike workers in china only get $.13 per day....?

Mandatory Cost of living increase over last years .11/day?

120 posted on 07/28/2006 3:46:38 PM PDT by Can i say that here?
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