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IRS Threatens Political Speech
US House ^ | 24 Jul | Congressman Ron Paul

Posted on 07/27/2006 8:20:43 AM PDT by xzins

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To: gdani
A true lack of freedom would be if churches were forced to be non-profits & therefore abide by these IRS regs.

Ha! The fact that they have to choose which of the IRS classifications they want to be in shows their lack of freedom. This argument reminds me of something I ran across on DU the other day.

In my opinion, a true lack of freedom is the government requiring you to fit into one of their classifications. The "give-up-your-property" group or the "give-up-free-speech" group. In either case you lose and the government wins. That's slavery.

61 posted on 07/27/2006 9:24:30 AM PDT by MichiganConservative (Government IS the problem.)
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To: xzins
Either 100 bucks goes for God's work or it doesn't?

Preaching politics is God's work?

62 posted on 07/27/2006 9:24:44 AM PDT by dirtboy (Glad to see the ink was still working in Bush's veto pen, now that he wisely used it on this bill)
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To: Always Right
Churches in this country ALWAYS enjoyed tax exempt status without applying for anything. It was not until LBJ wrote an amendment to a bill that became law that made it a quasi-requirement that churches register. Prior to 1954 it was an assumed right of the church to be tax exempt

Actually, they still to this day enjoy tax exemption without having to formally apply for it (unlike non-church organizations). But they must take formal steps to abandon it, if they wish.

Unfortunately , too many churches have forgotten which master they should serve.

63 posted on 07/27/2006 9:24:57 AM PDT by gdani
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To: Always Right
Now people assume this is some special previledge, but it is not. If there is going to be a separation of Church and State, there better not be any taxes on Churches.

Precisely. Bullseye.

Excellent comment.

The free exercise provision of the 1st amendment means they cannot curtail my religion, and taking some of my worship money given to God certainly curtails my religion.

If I give the offering plate 10 bucks for the church charities, and only 9 bucks gets there, then they have curtailed my worship of God via charity by $1.

My "exercise" was not "free." It was "curtailed/limited/lessened" by official government act."

64 posted on 07/27/2006 9:25:07 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

I could case less about a mortgage deduction, besides it isn't that big a deal when you are only getting it times your tax rate. If it was a deduction from taxes it might be meaningfull.

Personally it means nothing since I haven't had one in 20 years after I paid off the only I ever had and any property since then has been for cash.


65 posted on 07/27/2006 9:25:14 AM PDT by dalereed
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To: calex59
If a church wants to discuss politics and have candidates campaign for office from the pulpit then they have to give up tax exempt status.

Unless the candidate is a liberal Democrat. Extra points if the church is predominantly black.

The IRS is selectively enforces their rules to muzzle conservatives, pure and simple.

66 posted on 07/27/2006 9:25:30 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: BaBaStooey

Right on the money! (no pun intended)


67 posted on 07/27/2006 9:26:19 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: MichiganConservative
The real answer is for the citizenry to wake up and reclaim their birthright of liberty. Ditching the 16th amendment and abolishing the IRS would be part of that. UNtil that happens, we're just houseslaves, some more happy than others.

Excellant point! And one that needs making over and over again until it sinks in!

68 posted on 07/27/2006 9:26:52 AM PDT by Bigun (IRS sucks @getridof it.com)
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To: JamesP81

100% agreed ... and the economy of the country and the taxpayers as well will benefit financially also.


69 posted on 07/27/2006 9:27:06 AM PDT by pigdog
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To: TheCrusader
Frankly I hope they do revoke the Church's tax free status....

There is no revoking involved. Churches have always been considered tax free, with or without any tax exempt status. This would be a new thing and something that would be at odds with the establishment clause and certainly the concept of Separation of Church and State. Being tax exempt has always been an assumed right of the church since the beginning.

70 posted on 07/27/2006 9:27:58 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: ZULU

I misused "their" in post #47. It is annoying. It has me regularly apologizing. My typing gets ahead of my internal grammar checker, and I see it after I hit the "post" button.

:>)


71 posted on 07/27/2006 9:28:21 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: Grig

I'm not going to dignify this idiocy...


72 posted on 07/27/2006 9:29:37 AM PDT by pgyanke (Christ embraces sinners; liberals embrace the sin.)
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To: JamesP81
My beef is with so-called conservatives that seem to think using the IRS to railroad churches into not saying stuff it doesn't like is just peachy

Then you're barking up the wrong tree. I don't happen to agree with the IRS regs. I just don't get too worked up about them because no one is "railroaded" into anything.

And I also don't support Jones' bill because it applies only to churches. Include all non-profits (NRA, Planned Parenthood, etc) and that would be different.

73 posted on 07/27/2006 9:31:39 AM PDT by gdani
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To: dirtboy

It is a fact that preachers must be free to speak about anything.

As mentioned in a previous post, they are following the example of their religion: Jeremiah, Isaiah, Amos, Hosea, other prophets, John the Baptist, Jesus, etc.

Down through history it remains true: Luther, Hus, Wickliffe, Assissi, etc.

It is my religion to say from the pulpit: "Abortion is Sin because it's murder. John Kerry supports abortion. Don't support John Kerry."

Jesus would say far more cutting than that. He'd tell John Kerry a parable about a rich, inconsiderate guy that ended up in the burning fire of hell.


74 posted on 07/27/2006 9:31:56 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: ZULU
"I don't think clergymen should be preaching politics from the pulpit. "

And I don't think the IRS should be able to stifle free speech under color of governmental tax laws.

There are many organizations that should not be taxed at all and that could be done even more effectively under the provisions of the FairTax - and with far less punitive measures.

75 posted on 07/27/2006 9:32:16 AM PDT by pigdog
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To: xzins
"...taking anything from God."

The problem here is that churches often don't act like churches. When you have guys using churches to build financial empires or vocational villas or paying off mistresses or buying BMWs for their top 10 managers or talking straight up politics and telling you precisely who you should vote for....then there are issues. Scientology never should have been given tax-free status...Tammy & Jim Baker should have had their status pulled the minute they put the vacation village up on the air to sell to the public.

In Germany...they have a tax free status for churches...but you have to present your financial books...and they tell you precisely what is approved and disapproved. You can spend tons of money on church buildings...but the minute you buy a luxury BMW for a church boss...taxes are assessed against the organization. If you look across at Jesus and the twelve...none were selling politics. I'd rather not see religions setting themselves up to be the party of the Democrats or the party of the Republicans...it has a bad smell to it and nothing good can come of that attitude.
76 posted on 07/27/2006 9:32:47 AM PDT by pepsionice
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To: ancient_geezer

They could speak, ventriloquate, or fart as much as they want. They might have to start paying taxes, though.


77 posted on 07/27/2006 9:33:41 AM PDT by GSlob
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To: dalereed; P-Marlowe

So, then, you think others should have their speech limited because they take the mortgage deduction? I mean, after all, they are getting a government benefit, so they should shut up about the government.

Is that what you're saying?


78 posted on 07/27/2006 9:33:52 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: dirtboy

"Preaching politics is God's work?"


As sure as a prophet ever preached against a king or a kingdom, it is.


79 posted on 07/27/2006 9:34:17 AM PDT by Praxeus
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To: gdani
" There is no "right" to tax-exempt status."

There is. The right of people to freely associate for their own noncommercial purposes should not be infringed by taxation. The monies volunteered for the purposes and goals of the org are speech. Everyone knows the meaning of "BS walks and money talks".

What most folks don't get is that Freedom and the 1st Amendment's prohibition on infringement of Free speech goes beyond protecting simple words spoken in a closet. It covers association of folks with similar ideas and goals. It prohibits the govm't from ever promoting and sanctioning one groups goals and ideas over another's. The only valid justification for doing so is to identify and sanction rights violations.

80 posted on 07/27/2006 9:34:33 AM PDT by spunkets
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