Posted on 07/21/2006 12:35:13 PM PDT by wolf78
That's why I and other German FReepers were proposing to finish Afghan democratisation before stepping into Iraq some years ago.
I think it was 1945. And if you asked me, I´m pretty glad that we´ve come over this "unilateral policy-making" :-).
Seriously, what can a nation like Germany alone change? We have to be united with others to achieve our goals, and the Euro-American axis is still the best choice.
The leader of that merry band of attackers was a German-educated Egyptian with ties to Syria; he was also known to spend quality time with Iraqi 'diplomats' immediately after said meetings he received large sums of money.
Uh, where have you been during the last five decades? Had no access to western media? IIRC, Germany did a whole lot for its defense against the East during the Cold war, and German soldiers have been in Kosovo 1999 and Afghanistan 2001. Has anyone blamed a "single US politician" for that COOPERATION? Surely not. Right, without the US as the lead nation, there´s not much action. But that doesn´t imply that we´re blaming "a single US politician" for the actions we support.
P.S. Germany is the lead nation in Congo now to support the EU forces which shall provide security in Kinshasa during and after the first (semi-?)free elections there. For a country that nobody wanted a) to have soldiers at all after WW2 for one decade, then b) to deploy soldiers outside its territory for four decades, we´re rapidly changing from a Europe-only to a globally acting army. But you´ll never see carriers or strategic bombers of the German armed forces - we´re simply not allowed to that due to treaties that were signed by "a single US politician" and ratified by the US Congress.
Following American orders is not leading.
The German press and public, and the European press and public generally, continues to blame Bush for everything that happens in the world, while simultaneously moaning that they don't have enough influence over US policy.
Then when the US gives Europeans the lead, as it has in the last year and a half on the subject of Iran, they accomplish absolutely nothing, and in comes right back onto our plate with time wasted and diplomatic matters even worse than when we started.
Europeans are complete f-ups on security, start to finish, and act like spoiled babies. Grow the freak up and start policing your part of the world, already.
Jason,
one could also argue that Germany wasn´t that dumb to follow America in the huge mess called Iraq. So in which way are we following American orders??
The diplomatic efforts on Iran were not a "gift" by the US - you simply cannot afford another war, neither politically nor finacially or military. Fact is, your soldiers are already stressed to a serious degree by the Iraq mission. It´s the last option, but unlike Iraq, it´s really the very last option to go to arms.
The US simply has no diplomatic relations with Tehran, so there was no other possibility than to leave these efforts to the "E3". But make no mistake, there was a lot of cooperation between the "E3" and Washington. The diplomatic offensive wasn´t a waste of time. I don´t know where you live, but in my neighbourhood, we try to settle arguments or differences with words first before someone calls the police. Same with Iran, there had to be diplomatic trials, and those will continue unless the timeline has passed.
If you´re annoyed by the Bush-bashing in Europe, I´m with you. But before lecturing us, start in your country. I read of quite low approval rates... in the US!
Europe is a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.
Have a nice weekend,
Michael
Who cares how tired our soldiers are, when yours are completely fresh? So why aren't Germans invading Iran and setting things straight there?
Oh right, you think that's unwise and it is all a mess. After a dozen first world cities have been nuked by terrorist nutjobs, we can discuss the concept of "mess" again.
The US is winning easily in Iraq without even breaking a sweat. The only fatigue is political, and its leading cause is moral nincompoops like all the leaders of Europe. And everyone who supports them, there or here. All of whom still have their heads up their backsides, and all of whom are waiting for Bush and company to do anything, and then plan to snipe at them for doing so.
Well, it isn't going to happen this time. This time, if you don't move, you get nuked.
Saddam and Iran had each other in a headlock. Then you bust in, kill Saddam, reduce his country to a Mujaheddin-infested pile of rubble and tell us to 'move' because Iran is suddenly free of enemy neighbours and in a position of power? So that's how the big boys play - we just supported both. -.-
If you don't like it, get off your ass.
The US is through protecting you ingrates from the world.
Ah, so you are speaking for the whole US of A now. Good evening, Mr. President, you should maybe have excluded Britain from your Europe bashing, but then again, who cares for details. I may appear ingrateful about something to you when I'm telling you that conventional war in Iraq after missing your chance in Gulf War II and before having finished Afghanistan was a stupid decision IMHO. I'm sorry to have hurt your feelings. I feel less protected already.
And what Michael was telling you in the other post, you may have misunderstood: Following international treaties that were signed after the end of World War 2, the maximum size and power of the German military is limited and German military action was next to impossible for the last 50 years. So hey, that MIGHT be a reason why Germany's military is insufficent in your eyes.
Bush deliberately gave the EU the lead on Iran because the EU asked to be taken more seriously in international security matters, and as a means of healing the breech over the Iraq war. The EU promptly used that leadership to beg and scrap before a nutjob who has responded by sending Merkel love letters to Adolph Hitler and by attacking anything he can see. And the German reaction to such hijinks? Why, up the bid and promise said nutjob more goodies if he will only consent to lie to us all, one more time.
What the previous poster was telling me was that he still thinks the EU is sensibly giving time for diplomacy to work. Um, see above in re recent love letter to Adolph Hitler. Which is after all the subject of this thread. This is what EU leadership on an important international issue has brought us.
If you think Iraq is a mess, wait until you see what Iran does with its new nukes.
But do you require my judgement about EU foreign policy decisions, which have so disarmed Iran that they got Merkel the recent Hitler impersonation, the sanctions deadline has passed with no action by anybody, Iran is crowing about the surprises it plans for late August, and the bulk of Europe is too busy criticizing Israel to vote on anything about Iran?
If this is stellar leadership that solves real problems, what would pig headed stupidity that destroys western civilization look like? Behold the results of EU leadership - cities of innocents reduced to ash, coming soon.
At the same meeting Schroeder demanded a recognition of Germany's new role in the world, a recognition that the cold war structure of NATO was obsolete, and stated that Germany would conduct its own foreign policy based on bilateral relations from Russia to Morocco, and would intervene in crisis situations all over the globe.
He also hinted that he wanted a permanent seat on the security council. Instead he got one at Gazprom, go figure.
Rice responded by annoucing that the US would defer to EU leadership on Iran, in the interest of presenting a united front and healing the rifts caused by EU tantrums over the Iraq war. (Which, note well, hurt them not the slightest).
The US has since done everything the EU asked on Iran, including agreeing to ridiculous packages of concessions, fake negotiations, free nuclear reactors, billions in trade giveaways, and the usual folly of appeasement in full flower. In response to which Iran has blown them one raspberry after another, this letter inviting Merkel to remember uncle Adolph fondly being merely the most recent. Previously he took the occasion of a trip to Germany to reach out to German neo-Nazis and crow to Der Spiegel about reversing the verdict of WW II.
You asked for the lead, you got it. You asked for us to back up your criminally stupid policies, we backed them, and they predictably blew up. And it is your mess this time, every scrap of it. Go fix it, yourselves, and don't ask for our help doing it.
When hell freezes. The EU is a joke, just like this letter. Iran is made you an utter laughingstock and you can't even tell.
There´s no argument about Iran - at least not between the US government and the European governments. Iran will not develop nukes, such a scenario will be prevented. The timeline hasn´t passed, we still have plenty of time for negotiations, discussions and offers. But when the time has come, we will seek and support military action. Though I seriously doubt that this will be a ground offensive. We need to clear the sites with bombs - a tough mission, but not impossible. I really don´t know what´s your problem. Germany and the US are doing on Iran, everything follows a plan. Right now we have even Moscow and Bejing on board.
Jason, that may be a surprise to you, but there's no 'My country, right or wrong' over here, so if you got something against European or German politics, fire away :) Reminding you that this here is a discussion forum where American and International affairs are discussed, I thought, It would be okay for me to give away my opinion on current affairs. I see now that you don't require my judgement about that because you already have your opinion. But I really couldn't know you just wanted your boot to be licked, maybe you should write it in your tagline =/
In general, be reminded that the US are owner of the most advanced and trained military as a single country. Europe couldn't even agree about a constitution yet, we have no European army but only national military that had some civil war drills together. So every decision about war automatically becomes a matter of international relations, discussions, meetings. That's why I am not as positive as Michael about the capabilities of Europe in this conflict. Until Europe agrees on a policy, Iran might actually have the Nuke. Mind you, Europe got it's own Nukes (we don't, WW2 etc.), so maybe you overestimate the folly of Iran, when you suspect they will instantly launch Nukes into Europe. But at least we both agree that this is a member we don't want in the Nuclear club. Maybe that's why I'm on this board.
And as you maybe noticed here, I put down a whole post without resorting to insults. You can do it too, I know it.
That they don't is purely politics and lack of fundamental seriousness, not ability.
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