Posted on 07/09/2006 9:35:58 AM PDT by TomB
With Alonso coming, he was forced elsewhere.
"7 wins in F1 is hardly rubbish"
Hmm, it doesn't really live up to the reputation that he came with or the salaries that he he has been paid though. Generally in F1 there are only 3 or 4 teams seriously challenging for wins and he has generally had one of those cars. He has frequently looked better in qualifying than during races where he has made lots of errors. More often than not he has looked brilliant spasmodically but been outshone by his teammate, in the same equipment, over the course of a season.
Thanks, I couldn't have said it better. The dead giveaway was the word rubbish, and I'll not impune the mother country or its people.
I was thinking of Adrian Fernandez.
This isn't Ashley Judd's hubby is it? Whasshiss name?
Compared to whom during the same period of time?
He's finished 3rd twice, fourth, fifth and sixth (twice) in the championship points. Seven wins and 30 podiums. Given the complete domination of the top two positions by Ferrari, how much better do you want him to be?
McWhasshiss name.
I think. ;-)
" Compared to whom during the same period of time?"
The first acid test of an F1 driver is his performance against his team mate - thats the only person they are racing on equal terms with.
At Williams, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were generally fairly evenly matched. Although (unsuprisingly) I consider Ralf the most overrated of all F1 drivers - he never would have got the drives he did without his surname.
At Mclaren Montoya has been totally outclassed by Kimi Raikonen. 2005 season Raikonen 112 points, Montoya 60. So far this season Raikonen 39 points, Montoya 26.
Again, given the billing he came with of World Champion to be, and the cars that he's had, this is disappointing.
I think you overstate the 'complete domination' by Ferrari btw. A lot of the time the second Ferrari has not been much if at all faster than some of the chasing teams. The 'complete dominance' was down to Michael Schumacher making the difference. The same has been true with Renault/Alonso this season and last.
And when I talk about the reputation and expectations that Montoya came to Formula One with, this article from 2000 illustrates the kind of thing I'm talking about:
http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt005.html
"He is the best I have ever seen. And that includes Gilles Villeneuve and Keke Rosberg, who were the best road racing F1 drivers I watched in north America," Kirby insists, and if you think about it such words carry significant impact. Better than Villeneuve and Rosberg, who waged a tough, merciless yet fair war during their sensational Formula Atlantic days? "Montoya drives an oversteering car just like Gilles did"
"I'd hesitate to say that Juan is better than Ayrton Senna," Kirby concedes, albeit with a hint of reluctance in his voice. "But he is certainly in that category, and he is better than Michael Schumacher."
I mean it's debateable whether it was ever possible to live up to that kind of hype, but 'better than Schumacher', 'the new Senna', 'Gilles Villeneueve'? I think we can agree that Montoya has not proved to be in that class!
"This isn't Ashley Judd's hubby is it? Whasshiss name?"
Dario Franchitti.
Ah yes, those fascinating Formula races where the differences between 1st and 2nd place is about 20 seconds on the average. I bet Tony Stewart wrecks him before the first 3 races next year are up.
That totally invalidates your earlier "rubbish" comment.
The rest of your post is nothing more than a strawman. Nobody on this thread said anything about Montoya being the second comming of Senna. We were merely disputing your statement that he was a "rubbish" driver.
" That totally invalidates your earlier "rubbish" comment."
No it doesn't. As I said, I consider Ralf rubbish also!
Are you Montoya's mum by the way? You seem remarkably offended by a throw away comment! As I said in my more detailed and less hyperbolic posts, Montoya has been occasionally brilliant in F1, which has only served to highlight his failure to live up to his billing (and indeed his talent) on a more consistent basis.
Which drivers, outside of Schumi and Reubens, would you consider not "rubbish" in the same time period?
Are you Montoya's mum by the way? You seem remarkably offended by a throw away comment!
If by "throw away" you mean "completely wrong", well, it answers itself.
JP didn't live up to his hype, but he was far from "rubbish". His record, which you completely ignore, proves this.
And as to your "mum" statement. When I see a really stupid comment, I feel compelled to reply.
" JP didn't live up to his hype, but he was far from "rubbish"."
Yeah but we're playing semantics now. Obviously the guy is one of the top drivers in the world, but that goes for anyone in F1. However, he failed to shine against one team mate who is widely recognised also not to have delivered on his talent and been outclassed by another team mate. And he has never done what Schumacher, Raikonen and Alonso have done in recent years and been the 'difference making factor' in a car.
You can use 'average' or 'ordinary' rather than rubbish if you'd prefer, but that wasn't the level that was expected or, I suspect, that he himself was aspiring to.
Backpedalling noted.
No, he was a successful driver in F1 who never lived up to his hype. No matter how you semantically slice it, there is no way that qualifies as "rubbish".
But I guess since it was a "throw away line" you'd be right to throw it away.
I'm starting to think that 'rubbish' is a word that is used differently in the US than the UK. I've never actually offended anyone by calling a sportsman rubbish before!
I've never heard it used otherwise.
"he was a successful driver in F1 who never lived up to his hype"
I agree with that statement.
Anyone who makes it to a top level of motor sport has to have already achieved success while moving up the ladder.
Any driver who achieves a win in the upper level of motor sport is usually considered successful. The more wins, the more successful.
And many drivers who were successful before competing in the top levels of motor sport never win at the top divisions. For example Steve Kinser, winner of hundreds of World of Outlaws Sprint Car Feature Races never won in NASCAR. When he left NASCAR he returned to Sprint Cars and has won several of his seven national championships since leaving. Winning in any level of racing is success. Winning championships is the ultimate success. However most drivers never win championships despite winning races.
I really have little interest in F-1 because of the politics. There is little opportunity for a fledgling team to compete because F-1 is pretty much by invitation only as to who owns a team.
But NASCAR kicks A$$. Montoya will be a great addition to the ratings. As far as continued success he will be with a top notch organization with Gannassi. With a lot of skill and a lot of luck he may prove out as a champion in NASCAR. He may win races. He may not adapt and deliver. Time will tell. For now, he will bring a lot of good publicity to NASCAR, and somewhat be thumbing his nose at the F-1 snobs.
Saw him at a restaurant in Sao Paulo... two fabulous girls on each side. My host pointed him out to me, saying in broken English, "Pole Position."
I'll never forget when he crashed. All of Brazil shut down.
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