British Scientists Blast Vatican on Stem Cell Research Excommunication

Why do people want to be Catholic and yet be against what the Catholic Church believes and teaches? These people want to be Catholic but want to be able to pick and choose what parts of the doctrines, dogma and teachings the Catholic Church puts out there. The Catholic Church, in more than one place (including its Catechism) says this is not how it is supposed to work if you are a Catholic.

There is more than one denomination of Christians out there. So many people are into 'shopping' for a religion that fits them, not one they have to fit into. There are many that are more than happy to adjust to the individual. Find one of them if that's your mindset (it's not mine, but I am assuming it's theirs by their own complaint).

I was born and raised Catholic, and at 25 I realized there were so many things I didn't believe in what the church was teaching that not only was I technically a 'bad' Catholic, I was no longer a Catholic. I studied the Bible and different denominations for two years and am now in a conservative Lutheran denomination. I wasn't looking for one that fit my likes and dislikes, I found a denomination that was biblically-based, and consistently applied the bible as issues were presented.

If it ever strays from this, I will find it not hard at all to dismiss myself from it and find another denomination where God's Word is the highest authority and applied properly.

"Okay. You doubt the Tradition of the Catholic Church (note capital T). So show me the Scripture passages indicating the Canon of the Bible and the part that dictates Sola Scriptura as solely necessary for salvation?

You have a lot of looking to do."

The Gospel of John got included in the Canon of the Bible" so I guess in your Tradition would be considered "Sola Scriptura".

John 1:1 In the Beginning (Same words used as Genesis 1:1 and NO TIME meaning date is given" was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

v2 The same was in the beginning with God.

v3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made.

v4 In Him was life; (salvation is the time element, ever lasting, which is applied to what is sought for from life.) and the and the life was the light of men. Genesis 1:3 And God said "Let there be light:" and there was light. Not talking about the sun but the Son and what follows is the division of light and darkness. There are plenty of scriptures which I am not going to list that indicate who darkness represents.

v5 And the light shinneth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

v6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

v7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Now here we have John in a separate but still as important roll as given Peter, because John is a witness to that Light that gives life/salvation through the Light which Christ is all the way back to In the Beginning and the Word - Scripture is Christ.

v8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

v9 That was the true Light, Which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

v10 He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.

v11 He came into His own, and His own received Him not.

v12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name;

v13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

v14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

v18 No man hath seen (totally comprehended) God at any time; the only begotten Son, Which is in the bosom of the Father. He hath declared Him......

So the WORD is the "Sola Scriptura" necessary for salvation which understanding is given from the Heavenly Father through the belief that His only begotten Son was who it says he was, is and will be, holding those Keys of David.

Interesting isn't it that there were two specific trees named in the Garden of Eden, one was called the Tree of life, and we now know who is the giver of life, the other was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which represents darkness or death as Hebrews 2:14 states.

Want more let me know...

So the WORD is the "Sola Scriptura" necessary for salvation which understanding is given from the Heavenly Father through the belief that His only begotten Son was who it says he was, is and will be, holding those Keys of David.

The Word is also the Logos or the Son. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son and is the expression of the Love between them. To use the word "WORD" in its strict sense for Scripture alone denigrates the Trinity. God sent the Word to give Witness to Him. The concept of Trinity was hazy until Jesus described what it was. If we obey the Son, we obey God since God is Three Divine Persons of one Nature. How you get Sola Scriptura out of that is kind of a stretch.

I am waiting for the verse defining the Canon. I know you can't produce it because it doesn't exist. The followers of Jesus Christ who heard Him speak and who trained schools of believers carried the Tradition which in time was recorded. Read the early Church Fathers to see how this Tradition along with Scripture and the Magisterium nipped countless errors that preserved your Faith as well (like the Heresy of Arianism which was put to rest after a long fight).

You rely on Tradition and even the Reformation accepted huge swatches of it (as in Luther who had great reverence for the Mother of God and believed in her Immaculate Conception). If you wish to believe the Bible fell from heaven and was printed by Guttenberg, that presents problems I can't address.

Frank

"I am waiting for the verse defining the Canon. I know you can't produce it because it doesn't exist. The followers of Jesus Christ who heard Him speak and who trained schools of believers carried the Tradition which in time was recorded. Read the early Church Fathers to see how this Tradition along with Scripture and the Magisterium nipped countless errors that preserved your Faith as well (like the Heresy of Arianism which was put to rest after a long fight).
"

Why would scripture be in need to define man's word called Canon? We are given the WORD and yet we are told in two places the penalty for taking away from or adding too that Word. The apostles especially Peter the founder of the church, tells us in IIPeter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance;

v2 That ye may be mindful of the "WORDS" which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

The holy prophets and the apostles were the inspired writers of the WORD and men that followed "canonized" it. Peter does not say those that come after and set tradition via a spirit have authority, he says we are instructed by what was already written.

Mark 7:5 The the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "why walk not Thy disciples according to the "TRADITION" of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?"

v6 He answered and said unto them, "Well hath Easias (Isaiah) prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This People honoureth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.

v7 Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for "DOCTRINES" the commandments of men.'

v8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do."

v9 And He said unto them, "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

v10 For Moses said, 'Honour thy father and thy mother;' and, 'Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:'

v11 But ye say, 'If a man shall say to his father or mother, 'It is Corban, (that is to say, a gift), by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me, he shall be free.'

v12 And ye suffer him no more than to do ought for his father or his mother;

v3 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: AND MANY SUCH LIKE THINGS DO YE." (my caps for emphasis)

v14 And when He had called all the people unto him, He said unto them, "Hearken unto Me every one of you and understand:

v15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him:

but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

v16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."

I believe exactly what was Written.... "A virgin shall conceive.... the virgin was indeed Mary and her linage is given us that she came from the House of Judah - Key to David, the King line, and the tribe of Levi, that tribe designated as the priest line, as Christ was to be the King and the High Priest for one and all time.

I can find NO scripture that it is or was Mary that gave or gives the Heavenly Father His authority, after all He created her very soul. Obviously she demonstrated that she was worthy of being selected of being the one who would be chosen for that physical path for Christ to (Hebrews 2:14) partake of flesh and blood, just like the rest of us.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Mary physical sexual status and other births, after the birth of Christ, has no reflection whatsoever upon the Heavenly Father or of His only begotten Son, our Saviour.

By the way where is Mary buried?????

Why would scripture be in need to define man's word called Canon?

So why are the Gospels of Mary, Judas and Thomas omitted? They speak of Christ and His Word? Of course there is a canon. Otherwise what governs what is in your Bible? Why does my Bible have Maccabees and yours has it in a back section called an Apocrypha? It was stripped out during the Reformation and added back later.

The apostles especially Peter the founder of the church

Peter founded NO CHURCH. Christ founded a Church and left Peter as the caretaker on earth (the "Prime Minister" which you deny). And, of course Christ was of the House of David. God is God. He could have been of the House of Asher if He chose.

I believe exactly what was Written.... "A virgin shall conceive.... the virgin was indeed Mary and her linage is given us that she came from the House of Judah - Key to David, the King line, and the tribe of Levi, that tribe designated as the priest line, as Christ was to be the King and the High Priest for one and all time.

And I believe this too! Roman Catholics believe there is only ONE priest and He is Jesus Christ. The priests in our Church get their power solely by serving "in persona Christi" (on Christ's behalf). Without Him, they have no power and no authority.

I can find NO scripture that it is or was Mary that gave or gives the Heavenly Father His authority, after all He created her very soul. Obviously she demonstrated that she was worthy of being selected of being the one who would be chosen for that physical path for Christ to (Hebrews 2:14) partake of flesh and blood, just like the rest of us.

?????

Mary physical sexual status and other births, after the birth of Christ, has no reflection whatsoever upon the Heavenly Father or of His only begotten Son, our Saviour.

Mary had no other children. See Catholic Answers for an exegesis on this. The word "brothers and sisters" was used to show kinship and did not imply a direct relationship to Christ through His mother. This term could have implied cousins or kin. She bore only one child.

By the way where is Mary buried?????

The Eastern Tradition, which Catholics follow, is that she "fell asleep" or "died" (her dormition) in Ephesus. However, I'll ask you one. There are billions of pieces of the "True Cross" floating around and a legion of relics of every saint under the sun. Find one relic of Mary Immaculate on this earth or anyone who claims to have one...Then, admit she was assumed into heaven as Tradition teaches.

As John said, not every act or word Christ did was recorded. To do this would be impossible. So, word of mouth kept the Gospel alive until it was recorded. Is that not the definition of Tradition?

"So why are the Gospels of Mary, Judas and Thomas omitted? They speak of Christ and His Word? Of course there is a canon. Otherwise what governs what is in your Bible? Why does my Bible have Maccabees and yours has it in a back section called an Apocrypha? It was stripped out during the Reformation and added back later."

Who penned these gospels, of Mary , Judas and Thomas. I do not think Judas lived long enough to write much, the writing of the gospel of Mary seems not to have been authored by either Mary and Thomas I do not know maybe because he was a doubter. (Only slight sarcasm)

Writing about God and penning the inspired WORD of God are worlds apart. Seems that the Heavenly Father saw fit which Books were selected as His inspired WORD.

" And I believe this too! Roman Catholics believe there is only ONE priest and He is Jesus Christ. The priests in our Church get their power solely by serving "in persona Christi" (on Christ's behalf). Without Him, they have no power and no authority."

I think somebody is going to have to explain how they possibly could think that flesh man could serve on Christ's behalf. You are forgetting about the miracle that took place at the death of that veil being rent from the TOP to the bottom that the man priest did his work as method to have interaction with the Heavenly Father. Christ became each and every individual who would access to the Heavenly Father and NO longer are we required to go to a man in the flesh to communicate with the Heavenly Father, only through Christ.

No other person living or dead is given that authority and none of the New Testament authors established that system of Church it is of man's traditions.

It is the key church doctrine NOT of the Holy Word instruction that Mary never had sex and never bore other children. WHY is there this obsession upon Mary never having sex, what does it matter, it has nothing to do with salvation?

I have read that Mary was taken to England and there is such a 'tradition' passed down from generation to generation to this day. I find it a bit interesting if it be the case considering it was King James that made sure the commoner had access to an English Bible.

Who penned these gospels, of Mary , Judas and Thomas. I do not think Judas lived long enough to write much, the writing of the gospel of Mary seems not to have been authored by either Mary and Thomas I do not know maybe because he was a doubter. (Only slight sarcasm)

Who penned the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? John may have had input but these appeared some time after the Evangelists. It is more likely that their "schools" listened to the individuals and penned the Gospels. Mark was not one of the twelve. He obtained his accounts himself or from others. Luke was also not an original Apostle. It is certain his Gospel largely relied on commentaries from Peter and others. So what is your point? This is a specious argument. The point is that there were many Gospels and fragments extant and only 4 made it into Holy Scripure. The Gnostic texts were not included.

Writing about God and penning the inspired WORD of God are worlds apart. Seems that the Heavenly Father saw fit which Books were selected as His inspired WORD.

Agreed. God did this through the Church that His Son had instituted on earth and which had Peter as the Prime Minister.

I think somebody is going to have to explain how they possibly could think that flesh man could serve on Christ's behalf. You are forgetting about the miracle that took place at the death of that veil being rent from the TOP to the bottom that the man priest did his work as method to have interaction with the Heavenly Father. Christ became each and every individual who would access to the Heavenly Father and NO longer are we required to go to a man in the flesh to communicate with the Heavenly Father, only through Christ.

Your attack on the Catholic priesthood instituted by Christ is classic. Christ commanded His Apostles at the Last Supper to "do this in commemoration of me." By this he meant to enter into His ongoing and eternal sacrifice through the Mass and the Eucharist by transubstantiating bread and wine into His Body and Blood. He didn't say, "read this account in your Bibles in the Gospel of John which will be written soon." If you refuse to listen, you have lost a great treasure that God left us in perpetuity.

No other person living or dead is given that authority and none of the New Testament authors established that system of Church it is of man's traditions.

Says you. By whose Authority do you interpret Scripture in this way? I'll rest my interpretation on 2000 years of Bible study beginning within years of Christ's death and Resurrection via the Church Fathers. You are the one big on personal interpretation. Believe as you wish but that doesn't make it so.

It is the key church doctrine NOT of the Holy Word instruction that Mary never had sex and never bore other children. WHY is there this obsession upon Mary never having sex, what does it matter, it has nothing to do with salvation?

She was the new Eve whom God reserved as the vessel to bear His Son. Look at how many instructions were given concerning the Ark which held the tablets given to Moses. How are those more important thant the vessel which bore God the Son, the Man-God, the Second Person of the Trinity?

I have read that Mary was taken to England and there is such a 'tradition' passed down from generation to generation to this day. I find it a bit interesting if it be the case considering it was King James that made sure the commoner had access to an English Bible.

Too much Da Vinci Code for you! England managed to corner a lot of the key items of Christianity for some reason... ;-o) Post hoc ergo propter hoc argument regarding King James' Bible. What does this have to do with the price of onions pray tell?

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