McGuinness rubbishes media 'British spy' claims

Ireland Online ^ | 30/05/2006 - 12:28:01 | not stated

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Are you aware of any example, anywhere, of a peaceful bi-national state that would not be better off as two nations?

That is a good point - but would go over the heads of some here!

[Irish_Thatcherite]

hehe, McGuinness begging MI5 - I like that!!

[Irish_Thatcherite]

MI5 = MI6

[nickcarraway]

MI5 and MI6 are different. MI5 deals with internal security, while MI6 is the external security agency.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Yeah, I wasn't sure which one was correct for that post.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

:)

[Irish_Thatcherite]

:)

[jla]

This is strange...

What is strange is we've an Irish-related topic and no pictures of any the Dundalk angels.

[Fedora]

Himself and Ted Kennedy are great buddies!!

Aha--that would explain it! Speaking of which, I recently came across this article from 1971:

In Amsterdam, Dutch police seized a planeload of Czech-made arms flown from Prague and allegedly intended for the outlawed Irish Republican Army to use in its campaign to oust British troops from Ulster. They also arrested the Belgian pilot of the charter aircraft and an American who was charged with importing arms without a license.

SNIP

Perhaps the biggest brouhaha of all originated in the U.S. Senate over a resolution by Democratic Senators Edward Kennedy and Abraham Ribicoff calling for the withdrawal of British troops from Northern Ireland and talks leading to a united Ireland. "Ulster is becoming Britain's Viet Nam," said Kennedy in a speech. "America cannot keep silent when men and women of Ireland are dying. Britain has lost its way, and the innocent people of Northern Ireland are the ones who now must suffer . . . The tragedy of Ulster is yet another chapter in the unfolding larger tragedy of the empire. It is India, Palestine, Cyprus and Africa once again."

Hoary Propaganda. The speech caused hardly a ripple in the U.S., but from Belfast to Whitehall it reaped a whirlwind of scorn. Kennedy, declared Northern Ireland's Prime Minister Brian Faulkner, "has shown himself willing to swallow hook, line and sinker the hoary old propaganda that I.R.A. atrocities are carried out as part of a freedom fight on behalf of the Northern Irish people." Other critics quickly pointed out that Kennedy's proposal for unification was unrealistic, and that even the Irish Republic's Lynch has said only that he hopes unification can be achieved in his lifetime. In the London Times, Louis Heren said that "[Kennedy's] assertion that the U.S. was entitled to intervene because of the Irish contributions to American culture" amounts to "an ethnic Brezhnev doctrine."

The British Foreign Office declined to comment, but a Conservative M.P. introduced a motion in the House of Commons questioning the Senator's qualifications "for expressing moral judgments on anything"--an obvious reference to the 1969 Chappaquiddick tragedy. In a cutting cartoon, the London Evening Standard showed a crusty clubman growling over his port: "Looks like Kennedy's driven in at the deep end again."

--"Off the Deep End", TIME, Nov. 1, 1971

I got onto this subject because I was reading about a trip Kennedy made to Ireland in 1974. Some people he met when he was over there are mentioned here:

"FIREWORKS DISPLAY", Western People, Wednesday, August 04, 2004

With the name of Senator Ted Kennedy appearing in the news again as presidential candidate John Kerry geared up for the Democratic Convention in Boston last week it brings to mind that thirty years ago a small group of people from Kiltimagh had the pleasure of meeting Senator Kennedy and members of his family at the home of film director John Heuston in Craughwell, Co Galway. During the famous Coillte Come Home Week festivals in the late 60s and early 70s people flocked to Kiltimagh to see the wonderful fireworks displays which were the main attraction at the festivals. In 1974 Bord Failte contacted John Carroll who was secretary of the committee at the time to see if they would be willing to put on a fireworks display for the Kennedy clan on July 4th, American Independence Day. The display was to be a surprise for Ted Kennedy's 12 year old son who was suffering from bone cancer at the time and had just had a leg amputated. The Kiltimagh contingent who travelled to Craughwell to put on the display were John Carroll, Mick Higgins, Michael Charlton, Thomas Carroll, Jerry Walsh and Susan Carroll. When they arrived at Heuston's castle they got a warm welcome from the Kennedy family and another famous guest who was there, Senator Gene Tunney [actually John Tunney--Gene was his dad--F], son of the legendary boxer who had strong Kiltimagh connections and was a good friend of Jerry Walsh. It was a memorable night for the group and one that is remembered and often talked about when they all meet up.

Irish_Thatcherite, I'm doing some research related to this right now--would you happen to know if there are any online archives that might have more information on Irish newspapers' coverage of the above trip? Kennedy's son Kara injured her foot during the trip, which generated some media coverage in the US.

[Colosis]

In the wars again Irish!! Great to see you fighting the cause. Wish I'd more time to help you out.

[irish_links]

"...Are you aware of any example, anywhere, of a peaceful bi-national state that would not be better off as two nations?..."

Yes, one is the United States of America. You may recall we once fought a civil war. Another is Canada, where English and French speaking people form a union that is greater than the sum of its parts and somehow manage to coexist peaceably. Belgium, less so, but still a model of a bi-national comity. The Republic of South Africa is an example of a state in which formerly oppressed people live in relative harmony with their former oppressors. Malaysia is an Asian country with a Muslim majority and a wealthier Chinese majority that manages to prosper without violence.

Let me ask this question: for the roughly 400 years that the English monarchy ruled Eire, what concern for majority rights did the crown exhibit? Was it when it stole Christchurch and St. Patrick's in Dublin? (Still CofI last time I visited there). Was it when it seized the lands of thousands of farmers and made them serfs in every way but name? Or perhaps it was when they burnt nuns and friars out of their abbeys. Maybe it was the day it condemned to the gallows priests who had the temerity to say Mass or lashed the faithful for attending? Or maybe it was at Croke when they showed the Taigs what for at a GAA game?

Oh, I remember now. It was when the shoe was on the other foot. When the oppressed finally shook the chains from their ankles. Suddenly, great consternation was expressed about the rights of a majority held fast and falsely created behind the borders of Armagh and Derry.

This wrong has not been made right. An injustice does not become justice merely due to the passage of time. And, so long as Irish teenagers cannot walk the streets of Ulster without fear of being beaten to death because of their faith, it won't be forgotten.

[Jim Noble]

It's not a question of a majority and a minority.

There is no unitary state called "Eire". There is an island, on which there are two nations, neither of which want to belong to the other.

The obvious solution is two states. Any non-two state solution is fraught with problems, and the failure of either side to design or accept a unitary (and acceptable) state in 90 years makes the possibility that this will occur in the future quite remote, IMO.

[irish_links]

"...The obvious solution is two states. Any non-two state solution is fraught with problems, and the failure of either side to design or accept a unitary (and acceptable) state in 90 years makes the possibility that this will occur in the future quite remote, IMO...."

You may be right. Why not settle the question democratically and put it up for an all Ireland vote? It seems that would settle the question.

[Jim Noble]

Why not settle the question democratically and put it up for an all Ireland vote?

Because there is no such state or political community as "all Ireland".

Why not put it to an "all-Europe" vote, or an "all-British Isles" vote, or an "all Northern Hemisphere" vote, or, best of all, an "all-English speakers vote"?

The reason is that the people doing the voting under those proposals do not form a unitary entity, suitable for such voting.

But you know that.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

I'm still waiting for an apology and an unequivocal condemnation of the IRA from you.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Why not settle the question democratically and put it up for an all Ireland vote? It seems that would settle the question.

And what about the Unionist majority in NI? Don't they have a right not to be part of the republic?

[Irish_Thatcherite]

You did good! :)

[Irish_Thatcherite]

I dunno what Andrea Corr has to do with Martin McGuinness...

[Irish_Thatcherite]

"Looks like Kennedy's driven in at the deep end again."

LMAO!!!

Irish_Thatcherite, I'm doing some research related to this right now--would you happen to know if there are any online archives that might have more information on Irish newspapers' coverage of the above trip? Kennedy's son Kara injured her foot during the trip, which generated some media coverage in the US.

As it happens - I actually don't live far from Kiltimagh - there are a couple websites relating to the town, I'll see what I can do.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

I tell you - they were particularly viscious attacks this time, I would have hit the abuse button if I had held my temper, I tried counting to 10 when I was replying to Irish_links - but I lost my temper again at the last line!

Wish I'd more time to help you out.

It's ok, I'm sure you are busy - I don't have much going on at the moment, so I can waste my evenings flaming IRA trolls!! ;)