Posted on 05/27/2006 8:00:47 AM PDT by Utah Girl
>>Wow, two misstatements rolled up in a single sentence.
>>...
Thanks, I was on a business trip, and had 0 (zero) access to the web (contrary to the hotels promises)
Post 86
>> This statement is Non sequitur.
Post 89
>> Anything in the Bible?
Telegraphing your next post? (sorry, I couldn’t resist, ROTFLOL)
To answer your question, there’s lots of good stuff in the bible, you should read the whole thing. (grinning, I know that’s not what you meant, but still LOL).
>> How do you win people over to your faith?
Taking this as a serious question, you don’t. The Holy Spirit moves people, or they have not moved. Pure testimony of the Divinity of Jesus Christ accompanied by a witness from the Spirit of God converts. I alone can do nothing.
My father taught me a little couplet before my mission. “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”
I learnt this one while in Taiwan:
Now, it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles, and he weareth the Christian down;
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, with the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear: ‘A fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.’ - Solo from Libretto of Naulahka.
Testify, do not argue, if you want to convert.
Let me dig. There were lawsuits against the church at the time the "prophet" had his "revelation".
Which volume? There are 26 and many have sections 132, many of the 132’s deal with polygamy (polygamy is discussed a lot in the JOD), can you be more specific? (links are nice, try this one http://journalofdiscourses.org/ Complete text at your disposal.)
Ahh. A condescending nitpicker you are. You seem like an intelligent person, why did you disregard my point? Polygamy was practiced by JS and the church for many years until it became against the law (mans).
Are you familiar with Helen Mar Kimball? JS took her as his polygamous wife at the tender age of 14.
Helen’s father, Heber C. Kimball, brokered the deal, as well as Joseph’s promise to Helen that this step would virtually guarantee the exaltation of herself and her father’s family in the Celestial Kingdom. Helen concluded that her sacrifice was a small price to "purchase" such a glorious reward.
In practicing polygamy, JS committed adultery 11 times marrying women who were married to other men. Nuff said on that topic.
I was not aware that Tact was one of gods attributes; he offends sinners all the time by commanding them to repent. (“A tactful God”, there’s a short story in there somewhere)
You learn something new every day. I disagree with the "offending sinners all the time by commanding them to repent". Are you offended by God asking you to repent? I guess he could offend atheists but, why would an atheist be offended by a God he/she doesn't believe exists?
That said, I am sorry if my posts offend you, I am merely having fun with words, I assure you I am very likable in person, everybody says so, right after I pay them.
On the contrary. Your posts do not offend me although your "tact" leaves a little to be desired. But, I do like your sense of humor.
The "burning in the bosom". I understand.
My father taught me a little couplet before my mission. “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”
Sounds like you had a great father.. Consider yourself fortunate.
This statement does not ring true for all. I'm a prime example of that.
From your posts here you need to change your handle to “Rabble-Rouser” or maybe “Contrarian”.
I like your thinking...
The bottom line is that the Bible does not support polygamy; it in fact prohibits it. Believe me. If it were allowed, I'd be on board... yesterday.
Great quote.
Are you trying to say God wants homo marriages? Im pretty sure that isnt the case since scripture says homos are an abomination and a man laying with a man is a no-no.
>>Let me dig.
My father once told me “when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.”
>>There were lawsuits against the church at the time the "prophet" had his "revelation".
In my post I specifically stated I did not remember any heat. Got a link?, newspaper clipping, personal web site?
>> Ahh. A condescending nitpicker you are.
Pot, Kettle, Black, ‘nuff said.
>> You seem like an intelligent person, why did you disregard my point?
I saw no point. In your post (#55) you said “As far as polygamy is concerned, are you familiar with the Journal of Discourses section 132?” That was the whole sentence. This non sequitur came after a statement about blacks, and just before a comment about my lack of tact,
>>Polygamy was practiced by JS and the church for many years until it became against the law (mans).
Polygamy was practiced, man passed a law, and we had a commandment to obey the law. God decided what we should do, told the prophet, we obeyed. What’s the problem?
>> Are you familiar with Helen Mar Kimball? JS took her as his polygamous wife at the tender age of 14.
A woman of 16 was often considered an old maid in that day and age. Fathers routinely arranged the marriage of daughters (in some cultures they still do, go see “Fiddler on the Roof” sometime). Most women were married shortly after they reached puberty (which is still common in some cultures). That said by our standards, she was married a little early (like 4 years early). See what projection does for you?
>> In practicing polygamy, JS committed adultery 11 times marrying women who were married to other men. Nuff said on that topic.
You are wise to avoid this topic since many of the “Diaries” and even “Legal” documents are outright forgeries by enemies of the church. (Convicted forgers require that forgeries have been committed, and not all were caught.) Since many of the “11” you speak of don’t have firm dates of marriage either to Joseph nor to any other man recorded in anything other than “Miraculously appearing diaries”, it is tough to prove anything, especially now that all eye witnesses are dead.
There were many enemies of the church in Joseph’s day, they were ruthless, dedicated, and eventually murdered Joseph Smith in cold blood. If one case of polyandry was provable back then they would have hung Joseph for it. Since it was not proven, and the records now have been tampered with, I have to conclude he never did.
>> I guess he could offend atheists but, why would an atheist be offended by a God he/she doesn't believe exists?
Never the less they seem to be offended all the time, even to the point of trying to keep others from practicing their beliefs.
>>But, I do like your sense of humor.
I am glad someone appreciates my sense of humor, been trying to convince my wife (note I have and desire only one) that's what it is for years. (Grin)
>>Sounds like you had a great father.. Consider yourself fortunate.
I do, believe me, I do.
>>This statement does not ring true for all. I'm a prime example of that.
While not everyone receives my testimony in the spirit it is given, I have yet to meet anyone who developed faith from an argument they lost.
Go with God, May he grant you what wisdom you lack and may you draw closer to him every day.
>>The bottom line is that the Bible does not support polygamy;
>>it in fact prohibits it. Believe me. If it were allowed, I'd be on board... yesterday.
So, let me go through a little exercise…
1. Abram was righteous
2. Married Hagar(had a son by her, then Sari)
3. Was so righteous, God changes his name to Abraham, his wife’s name to Sarah, and God then blessed him with blessings we enjoy today.
4. God is the unchanging author of righteousness.
Did God change or did we misinterpret something in the Bible?
That said, just because polygamy was legal, doesn’t men I’d want to…
(How many honey do lists can you keep up with? Imagine several wives going through PMS at the same time. I’ve got more, these men who had multiple wives and made even a seeming happy home, my hat’s off to them.)
>>>>My father taught me a little couplet before my mission. “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”
>>Great quote.
Remembering it would keep me out of some of the trouble I get into here (Grin)
I try (sometimes successfully) to keep to the facts, but my love of invective often gets the upper hand. My wife does not appreciate invective, especially when employed in a discussion with her.
The underlying cause for this "revelation" were charges of racial discrimination.
In 1978, "Prophet" Spencer Kimball, (Deseret News, June 9, 1978, p. 1A) said:
"...[W]e have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful [black] brethren.... He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come.... Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color."
Which, of course contradicts the previous 148 years of bigotry practiced by the church.
More quotes:
"Those who were less valiant in preexistence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the NEGROES." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition
"The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, ...but this inequality is not of man's origin. IT IS THE LORD'S DOING, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the LACK OF SPIRITUAL VALIANCE OF THOSE CONCERNED IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE [the Mormon pre-existence]." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527 - 528, 1966 edition
"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put A MARK upon him, which is THE FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race -- that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290, 1859
"Though he was a rebel and an associate of Lucifer in pre-existence, ...Cain managed to attain the privilege of mortal birth.... [H]e came out in open rebellion, fought God, worshiped Lucifer, and slew Abel.... as a result of his rebellion, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; He became the father of the Negroes, and those spirits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born through his lineage." LDS "Apostle" Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 108-109, 1966 edition
"Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966
etc etc ad nauseum.
It is amazing how Spencer Kimball was able to change Gods mind in reference to the above. What a guy ;)
That's funny. I know when I was a young girl, I would read about LSD in the paper, but I was confused because there was nothing in the article about my church.
The Local LDS church has a Scout troop. Unlike the other troops that put the name of the church on the Troop flag, their flag just says "LDS". Frequently, Scouts will ask why their flag has a drug reference on it.
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