Posted on 05/23/2006 11:27:48 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
""After Stalin starved 10 million Ukrainians to death in the 1930s, he moved a big percentage of their population to
Siberia and replaced them with Russians".
"That's lies. Firstly, even today's Ukranian nationalists report 3,5 - 5 mln people dead of starvation in 1932-33. The whole population of Ukraine was 28-30 mln."
Well, I don't think "lies" would be the correct way to characterize my statement. I'll admit my knowledge is not expert. Perhaps it was 3 to 5 million starved to death instead of 10 million. it would still be a crime of colossal proportions.
"And - Russians also lived in Ukraine in those days. Plenty of them died as well."
To me, this statement is an attempt to muddy the waters. Are you denying that Stalin deported a significant percentage of the Ukrainian population into Siberia and replaced them with Russians? This is the key point, not whether some Russians lived there before.
"Stalin did't aim to kill the Ukrainians."
Not according to what I've read. The Ukrainian resistance to Sovietization was the greatest, according to what I read. Stalin had the granaries locked up---and millions starved as a direct result. Do you dispute this?
"Secondly, u should study the history of that event. Hundreds of thousands of people died of starvation in Russia itself."
Hundreds of thousands of Russians (out of a nation of more than 140 million?) compared to three to 5 million Ukrainians (out of the nation of less than 30 million?). You undermine your own point.
"Lots of them were sent to Siberia 2. But who cares..?
It was a real crime committed by Stalin. And the Russian people suffered even more than Ukrainians or any1 else."
Of course there was a lot of Russians suffering under Stalin. But they did not suffer more than the Ukrainians---person for person.
"It is these Russians who support the idea of the Ukraine again becoming a Russian colony".
Again - u do not know wot u r speaking about. The difference between the East and the West of Ukraine was obvious since the 17th century. Ukraine has always been divided in 2 parts. The westerners were slaves of Poles and then Germans, the eastern Ukrainians belonged to Russia and were part of Russian nation. We fought together and we lived together and we've always been one people united by our language and Orthodox Church. And it's ridiculous to name Ukraine a 'colony'. Perhaps Uzbekistan used to be a colony or sumthing - but never Ukraine."
I'll admit you know more about the history of the Ukraine that I do, and I'm not about to become an expert in every aspect of Soviet and post-Soviet Russian exploitation and cruelty around the world---that would take multiple lifetimes. I withdraw the word "colony"---it is emotion-laden and possibly inappropriate.
The fact is, Russia does not want the Ukraine to continue to be independent of Russia. Many Ukrainians hope to maintain their independence and I support that hope.
"Americans will force them to progress towards democracy only by their presence over there"
Think about this statement and try again.
""After Stalin starved 10 million Ukrainians to death in the 1930s, he moved a big percentage of their population to
Siberia and replaced them with Russians".
That's lies."
Well according to Churchill, Stalin admitted himself that he killed 10 millon during the famine.
"Dudes Russia just isnt the threat the USSR was and it will be very hard pressed to reach such a level again. That's just reality."
You seem to forget that Russia shut off the gas to Europe this winter and froze thousands.
"You are partially right here, but in longer run the Americans will force them to progress towards democracy only by their presence over there."
Sorry, couldn't wait for you to rethink this ludicrous statement. How easy it is for you to forget about the "little people" now you live in a stable country protected by NATO. US presence in Kazakhstan will NOT "force them to progress towards democracy" because:
1.) Democracy cannot be FORCED
2.) Oppositionists and true democracts in Kazakhstan were heartbroken that the US government made such an open display of support for this dictator.
3.) You cannot promote democracy in a country where you have praised a dictator for his undemocratic leadership.
I was extremely disappointed to see this move by Cheney. We have embraced a man who is the exact opposite of what we believe in and preach in the US. Just as Putin's support of Karimov will eventually bite Russia in the butt, so too will our support of Nazarbaev (and Aliev).
"The difference between the East and the West of Ukraine was obvious since the 17th century. Ukraine has always been divided in 2 parts."
That's BS - here is a map of the mortality rates in Ukraine after the 1932 famine - that is why there are Russians in Eastern Russia
http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/famine_map.html
Correction "that's why there are Russians in Eastrn Ukraine"
"Now that the country you fled has the opportunity of turning itself into a better place you find yourself conflicted."
How do you propose that Russia is getting better?
Sopunds like so much 2+2=5
""Vladimir Putin has rolled back democratic freedoms in Russia.." "
"That's lies. I don't even know how to proove it."
Is anyone else speechless?
"I'm not Russian."
BWAHAHAAHAHA
"How do you propose that Russia is getting better?"
Hmm, lemme see - rise in the standard of living, more job opportunities, the younger generation actually having "hope" in their future, personal freedom, the right to worship whom they want, free press, freedom of speech, etc., etc.,
Or is it your position that Russia was better off under communism, as your statements seem to hint at Comrade Spinalot?
That's right - I'm an American, and an American veteran - unlike you - a guy who hid in his momma's basement when America needed men to serve.
When was it, again, that the KGB interrogated you on American territory?
"You have no idea what you are talking about...you have never been to Russia and neither have you spoken to Russian Orthodox Xhrstians.
So keep you ignorant remarks to yourself."
If it is ignorant, it is still very true.
I am apalled at the ability of the church of Moscow to control the clergy here in the US. We went to a repast for a Ukrainian Lemko (who were duped by the moscow church into believing they were Muscovy)and the priest had the temerity to use this solemn event to spout the worst Mother Goose Marxism i have heard in 30 years. We were entreated to how the US committed genocide against 10 million Indians and also how Russia was responsible for every major innovation in the 20th century.
Oh yeah - we got the "Ukrainians killed themselves" party line too.
"What on earth would you be doing in Russia anyway...Certainly not admiring the Hermitage "
Why admire a structure that killed thousands of Ukrainian serfs during its construction.
look at the Canadians....and Minnesotans... odd bunch
"Don't be naive. The States don't care about the true democracy in other countries. Their interest is economic&military."
Is that why Honda and Mercedes is run by the State Dept?
"Why admire a structure that killed thousands of Ukrainian serfs during its construction."
LOL. And after that Ukrainian serfs discovered America, landed the first man on the moon, invented electricity, the television, found the cure for polio, and invented the internet.
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