Posted on 05/12/2006 4:41:46 AM PDT by Tolik
Where was author Hanson's perception of WW2 questionable? It was a bleak time, but nonetheless the U.S. overcame the odds and triumphed.
Chosin, a name to be greatly honored.
Some people even allege that Hanson's study of and acknowledgement of the necessity of some wars is the same as liking war.
My father-in-law was a "wrench turner" for B-52s at Wright Pat.
Good, screw free speech and all dissent. Fall in line subject. Yep, that's what conservatism has become these days. Love of the State. I do wonder if you statists will embrace the State when Democrats come to power again. Or will you rechange your stripes and complain about every little thing a Democrat does?
I find his treatment of modern history pretty damn accurate---much better than yahoo Freeper neoConfederates who think that only happy slaves existed in the South.
Of course a Straussian would think that. BTW, my family didn't own slaves after 1780 but they still fought against the Almighty State. 'yahoo Freeper neoConfederates'? Your argument is so weak you're resorting to intended insults already?
If only all historians were as accurate in dealing with war issues as Hanson.
LOL. Comparison of every current US foreign policy to ancient Greece or Roman history is not only inane, it's plain wrong headed. I can honestly say I've never seen the Peloponnesian War used to explain away so much. The stretches Vic has taken to imply any sort of comparison has been humorous to say the least.
Yes, enlighten me. What was the 'necessity' of WWI for these United States?
Being a neoConfederate is itself an insult. I don't need to resort to it. Love those slaves, dontcha billbears.
A Europe under German domination was a threat to everyone. Course, to you and your ilk, the only threat ever was Abe Lincoln. Truly a sick puppy.
More insults. As stated, no one in my family on either side owned slaves after around 1750. Even then it was only one. But keep slinging mud. You don't have an argument.
A Europe under German domination was a threat to everyone.
How exactly was that again? Of course you fail to address the issue of Wilson requesting Russia to stay in the war, which in turn brought about the communist revolution. You fail to address that WWI was coming to a close and the peace established without US intervention would have been a lighter burden on Germany, thereby not creating the vacuum Hitler stepped into. Nope none of that. Belgium babies was it?
Course, to you and your ilk, the only threat ever was Abe Lincoln. Truly a sick puppy.
Any attack against the intent of the Framers is a threat. Ilk? Sick puppy? And you supposedly helped write a book? I hope to God you put forth more meat in it than short mantras and name calling.
No, it's all mantras and name calling. Fortunately, I rely on people who believe in freedom to read it, so that kinda lets you out. And whether you "believe in abortion personally" or not is irrelevant. (oops, meant to say "slavery," but you knew what I meant).
Well hell at least you admit it. However I do know someone who purchased the book. Uses it as a doorstop IIRC
And whether you "believe in abortion personally" or not is irrelevant. (oops, meant to say "slavery," but you knew what I meant).
Ah, so now I believe in abortion as well? I tell you, you're slick. I believe in neither, however as neither is addressed directly in the Constitution of these United States, the federal government places the power for such decisions in one place. I'd give you three guesses as to where but being a statist you'd still miss it.
A doorstop is what most illiterate people use books for. I'm sure they have the Bible there, too. Nice evasion of the abortion and slavery questions. But I think you've made clear where your heart is on these matters. And invoking fears of "the state" doesn't exactly cover these sins.
1. I did not make that statement.
2. Answer my questions first. Here they are for easy reference, edited because I screwed up the possessive apostrophe on "critics":
Why don't you be more specific? Where does Hanson make a mistake here about WWII? Where does he unfairly criticize war critics' treatment of current ops?Surely you can come up with an answer, right?
LOL, but you addressed the importance of WWI and the repercussions from Wilson's involvement?
Nice evasion of the abortion and slavery questions.
LOL, I knew you'd miss it. I gave you a direct answer to that question. Let's look at my response again shall we slick?
I believe in neither, however as neither is addressed directly in the Constitution of these United States, the federal government places the power for such decisions in one place. I'd give you three guesses as to where but being a statist you'd still miss it.
Hmmmmm, the answer's there. I'll give you a hint. It's in the Bill of Rights....To reiterate for the slack jawed among us, I neither condone abortion or slavery (a slur that I know will try to be attached to me of course). I also recognize under the limitations of the Constitution of these United States, there is one place such decisions were intended to be made. Now, if LS can put down his talking points to think for himself let's see if he knows where the one place the Framers intended such issues to be dealt with. I'll even help you out a bit. Federalist #45 addresses it. Hey, Hamilton wrote that one. A statist like yourself probably has memorized every word out of that monarchist's mouth....Of course you don't believe it, haven't read it, or don't understand it (a combination of the latter I imagine). We wouldn't be having this ridiculous conversation if you did.
Excellent sarcasm. Thanks for the ping.
and John Ford
bttt
The wailing about the diffuculty of the Iraq war does provide us with an opportunity to examine the historical record of World War II and contextualize it in relation to the current situation in Iraq.
If one wishes to adopt the outlook of the contemporary critics of the Iraq enterprise, than World War II could have been characterized as an endless quagmire that we could never win. Relatively few people are aware that the strategic bombing campaign in 1943 nearly ground to a halt when the deep penetration raids into Germany were called off after the staggering heavy bomber losses of the Schweinfurt and Regensberg missions. (So brilliantly characterized in the great World War II movie "12 o'clock High") There were no loud public howls about the fact that the self defending bomber formation concept was flawed and had revealed itself to be so by the Army Air Force not having a long-range fighter escort ready at the time. We are so used to the Air Force sustaining almost no casualties in current day operations that we often forget that the 8th Air Force based in England suffered more dead (26,000) than the entire Marine Corps did in World War II (less than 20,000) There were no loudly public howls of quagmire, quagmire we can't win this.
How about the night naval battle off Savo Island, Guadalcanal in August of 1942 in which the United States Navy, defeated by a Japanese navy far better versed in night fighting tactics, sailed away and left 16,000 Marines stranded on Guadalcanal and Tulagi with no immediate hope of resupply? There weren't any howls of quagmire, quagmire we can't win.
How about the slaughter off the Eastern Seaboard of the United States in 1942 in which the U-boats of the German Kreigsmarine during Operation Drumbeat sunk 500 allied merchant and navy ships in a six-month period in the greatest naval disaster in United States history? There was an almost incomprehensible failure to develop an efficient convoy escort system despite the lessons of World War I. Again no howls of quagmire, quagmire we can't win, let's make the Secretary of War and Chief of Naval Operations resign.
How about the Kasserine pass in Tunisia in February of 1943? The tough panzergrenadiers of Rommel's Afrika Corps soundly defeated and routed green American troops, sending them into pell mell retreat. Again no howls of quagmire, quagmire these Germans are just too battle hardened and ruthless to beat.
Relatively little is known of the bloody check inflicted on units of the 1st, 4th, 28th, and 9th infantry divisions by the Germans during the battle of Huertegen Forest during Sep- Nov of 1944 as a prelude to the Battle of the Bulge. The men of these units were attrited horribly in one the most soul destroying campaigns in American history, comparable to the Wilderness and Cold Harbor campaigns of the Civil War. Winston Churchill called it "Passchendale with tree bursts." Or the Battle of the Bulge's disastrous opening on the Schnee Eifel in Belgium where intelligence failures allowed a totally surprised American Army to lose to captivity two whole infantry regiments of the 106th infantry division in the opening rounds of the battle? Again no howls of quagmire, quagmire we just can't win.
Or how about the defeat inflicted on the allies during Operation Market Garden (a Bridge Too Far) in 1944 when everyone knew that the Germans were already beaten? Or the horrendous losses off Okinawa? Or the failure to ensure sufficient numbers of tracked landing craft at Tarawa due to a misinterpretation of the meteorological conditions affecting the tides around Betio atoll? Nearly 1,000 Marines died in a 76 hour battle for an atoll smaller than Manhattan's Central Park, many because they had to wade hundreds of yards to shore from Betio's lagoon after their landing craft hung up on the reef. Or the largely unnecessary Pelielu campaign in which 1,800 were killed and 8,500 wounded? Or the bloody repulse at Italy’s Rapido River in January of 1944, or the grinding stalemate at Anzio or the entire checkmated Italian campaign, hopelessly bogged down in the Liri Valley before Monte Cassino? Even though the Rapido River attack generated enormous controversy, culminating in a congressional inquiry, it did not commence until the war was over. Or, due to logistical failures, the inability to maintain the pressure on a retreating German Army, which had been shattered in Normandy, which allowed it to refit and regroup behind the Westwall, lengthening the war and costing thousands of lives. Again no howls of quagmire, quagmire we can't win. Or the inexplicable failure to close the trap on some 40,000 cornered Axis troops in Sicily, who escaped across the straits of Messina, to further bedevil the Allies in Italy?
Ill-considered, incorrect strategic and tactical decisions by Allied leadership cost tens of thousands of Allied troops their lives, their health and the failure to achieve objectives. We often forget that World War II was no unrelieved string of victories until the final triumph. We often suffered defeat on the battlefield, sometimes catastrophic ones, but we prevailed because we knew that we had to, since the alternative to victory was just too bitter to contemplate. In 1944, after the Tarawa bloodbath was over, there was an enormous controversy over whether or not to show the gruesome color film shot by combat cameramen of dead Marines floating in the lagoon of Betio, their bloated, rapidly decomposing corpses turning black in the hot equatorial sun and piled in ragged heaps on the beach. It was feared that the hideous sights would damage home front morale too much. The decision was made by President Roosevelt to release the film and trust that this would impress upon the public the gravity of the maelstrom that their sons were being flung into. The decision was correct. War bond sales skyrocketed after the release of the film, and war production soared as the American people realized that their support for the war effort would help to return their men with victory in hand that much sooner. While our forces in Iraq embody the same sort of heroism and devotion to duty as their predecessors, I wonder if the present day home front is made up of the same stern stuff as its antecedent. I certainly hope so and time will tell.
America’s fighting forces of World War II responded to the above described setbacks with a mix of determination, grim courage, innovation, and a uniquely American quality that historian Victor Davis Hanson terms as “Civic Militarism.” This can be characterized as a combination of virtues possessed by soldiers of those societies that inculcate their armies with the sense that their military contributions are derived from a sense of participatory citizenship.
Nothing even remotely resembling any of these historical disasters of World War II has occurred in Iraq, but these infantile naysayers who try to pose the situation has an absolute defeat are either hopelessly naïve or determined to demoralize our soldiers and willfully undermine this effort. Despite the setbacks that have occurred in Iraq, there is nothing here that cannot be remedied to this country's favor.
Our magnificent soldiers, sailors and airmen still have more tough work to do which will undoubtedly be done with the same mix of courage, humanitarianism, innovation, and competence that has characterized our effort in Iraq to date, Abu Ghraib notwithstanding. But when you compare this effort to that other great effort of World War II that we are presently commemorating, this one looks to be comparatively well in hand. All this was accomplished at almost no cost in strictly military terms, and yes, I am aware that the brutal calculus of war is soulless and necessarily heedless of the irreplaceability of precious individual human beings. But we must also realize that wars in the national interest, as I believe this one to be, require that we be prepared to accept this as a condition of our national security.
Again, I wish to express my undying gratitude to a generation of Americans who showed us how to prevail in a REAL quagmire. And to the Americans who are now getting it done and overcoming the quags in the mire despite those who say they can't or shouldn't. As the ever brilliant Mark Steyn said best in his 30 May Sun-Times column:
“But that's the difference between then and now: the loss of proportion. They had victims galore back in 1863, but they weren't a victim culture. They had a lot of crummy decisions and bureaucratic screwups worth re-examining, but they weren't a nation that prioritized retroactive pseudo-legalistic self-flagellating vaudeville over all else. They had hellish setbacks but they didn't lose sight of the forest in order to obsess week after week on one tiny twig of one weedy little tree. “
“There is something not just ridiculous but unbecoming about a hyperpower 300 million strong whose elites -- from the deranged former vice president down -- want the outcome of a war, and the fate of a nation, to hinge on one freaky jailhouse; elites who are willing to pay any price, bear any burden, as long as it's pain-free, squeaky clean and over in a week. The sheer silliness dishonors the memory of all those we're supposed to be remembering this Memorial Day.”
“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. - John Stuart Mill” ~ (1868)
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