FAIR TAX BOOK- 2nd Ed. Revisions

self | May 5. 2006 | RobFromGa

[Always Right]

I never saw it as a free ride.

I am glad, then the point is mute with you. But for seven years fairtaxers have been saying paychecks will go up and prices will go down. Everyone is a winner and there are no losers. The simple truth is paychecks will go up, but so will prices. People with after tax savings will have to pay taxes on that money again and will see their buying power decrease. There are just many people who are sick of being sold snakeoil.

[EternalVigilance]

Let me translate the multitude of (juvenile-sounding) words of the anti-FairTaxers on this thread:

"I support the Income Tax and the IRS code."

[Imgr8t]

Well that's fine and good. But even if it's a wash when it comes to receiving and paying... is it still not a good plan?

I personally wouldn't care if the tax percentage was 50%... if it stopped Washington from their entitlement, gave me the power to spend and repealed the 16th amendment... I'm still for it.

The only axe to grind I have is with Washington. The death tax, the "robin hood" EITC credits, the crazy spending they do to enforce such tax codes... you know if any other business had to spend as much as they do to support thier "product"... they'd give it up. It's the control they have that keeps them in business.

Thanks for your replies. I will do more homework.

[R.W.Ratikal]

The so-called Fair Tax is a diversion. We don't need a fair tax but much much lower taxes. If everyone is being robbed it's no consolation to know that everyone is being robbed in the same way.

Both Linder and Bortz admit that their proposal is "revenue neutral." That means taxpayers will continue to be over-taxed and will continue to be hit with tax increases almost every day the legislators are in session.

Some non-governmental economists have estimated that Americans are over-taxed some 70 percent if measured by Constitutional limits, that is, by what can be justified as legitimate spending by government.

Fair, Schmair. We need LOWER!

[EternalVigilance]

I personally wouldn't care if the tax percentage was 50%...

Me neither.

What the antis always conveniently forget to tell everyone is that the rate, as long as it is revenue-neutral, says nada about whether the FairTax is a good idea or not.

The needed rate is merely a reflection of TOTAL FEDERAL SPENDING.

And with the FairTax, it will finally be COMPLETELY OUT IN THE OPEN FOR EVERY TAXPAYER TO SEE.

Visibility is one of the many great features of the retail sales tax.

Visibility, combined with the fact that all Americans will finally be taxed equally, is the only path to beginning, politically, to getting a handle on the massive federal spending problem.

As long as it continues to be hidden by the shell game we call the federal income tax system, people just don't understand what's being done to them.

[EternalVigilance]

The so-called Fair Tax is a diversion.

No it isn't. Far from it. It is FUNDAMENTAL reform.

We don't need a fair tax but much much lower taxes. If everyone is being robbed it's no consolation to know that everyone is being robbed in the same way.

Two points: One, it does matter how you're taxed, as well as how much you're taxed. That is especially true when so much of what people are paying is hidden. Secondly, everyone is not paying the same thing. Some people who have been able to afford to buy politicians have purchased protection.

Both Linder and Bortz admit that their proposal is "revenue neutral." That means taxpayers will continue to be over-taxed and will continue to be hit with tax increases almost every day the legislators are in session.

You need to give some serious thought to what it means politically to getting all taxes bundled into ONE TAX and VISIBLE.

[Your Nightmare]

ANTI-FAIR TAXERS WOULD NATURALLY BE:

You forgot: E. Any person with an I.Q. above "moron" level.

[Your Nightmare]

Let me translate the multitude of (juvenile-sounding) words of the anti-FairTaxers on this thread: "I support the Income Tax and the IRS code."

How about "I think the FairTax is a bad idea and would be worse for America than our current system (yes, it could be worse)."

[EternalVigilance]

Is having a hidden tax system a good thing, YN?

Would having a visible form of taxation be a good thing, politically?

Simple yes or no answers will suffice.

[Your Nightmare]

The needed rate is merely a reflection of TOTAL FEDERAL SPENDING. And with the FairTax, it will finally be COMPLETELY OUT IN THE OPEN FOR EVERY TAXPAYER TO SEE.

Except for the part that's not, like the federal taxes the state and federal governments would be paying (more than twice the current "hidden" corporate income tax) and would be "hidden" in our state and local sales, income, and property taxes.

[Your Nightmare]

Is having a hidden tax system a good thing, YN? Would having a visible form of taxation be a good thing, politically? Simple yes or no answers will suffice.

No, a "hidden" tax is not good so why do you support a plan that would "hide" more taxes than the current system.

[EternalVigilance]

How about "I think the FairTax is a bad idea and would be worse for America than our current system (yes, it could be worse)."

A Comparison of the FairTaxSM, the Income Tax,
and the Flat Tax

August 2001
Printable Version

	FairTax, H.R. 25 Linder-Peterson	Federal Income Tax Pre-2001 Law	Flat Tax, H.R. 1040 Armey
16th Amendment	Proposes repeal.	No change.	No change.
Complexity	Individuals do not file. Businesses need only to deal with sales tax returns.	Very complex; 20,000 pages of regulations; I.R.S. incorrect over half of the time.	Withholding continues. Individuals and businesses must still track income and file income tax forms.
Congressional Action	23% Linder/Peterson Fair Tax Act of 2001 (H.R. 2525). Employees receive 100% of pay.  Social Security and Medicare funded from consumption tax revenue, not your paycheck. (H.J.Res45) - Will repeal the 16th Amendment.	Used by lobbyists and the wealthy for tax-breaks and loopholes.  Used by bureaucrats for social engineering.	Rep. Armey’s H.R. 1040 has some problems, but is far superior to current law.
Cost of Filing	No personal forms are filed. Significant cost savings.	$225 billion in annual compliance costs. 1	Significant simplification ­ costs are somewhat reduced.
Economy	Un-taxes wages, savings, and investment.  Increases productivity.  Produces significant economic growth.	Taxes savings, labor, investment, and productivity multiple times.	Imposes a tax burden some of which is still hidden in the price of goods and services.
Equality	Taxpayers pay the same rate and control their liability.   Tax paid depends on life style.  All taxes are rebated on spending up to the poverty level.	The current tax code violates the principle of equality.  Special rates for special circumstances violate the original Constitution and are unfair.	The flat tax is an improvement over the current income tax, but it is still open to manipulation by special interests.
Foreign Companies	Foreign companies are forced to compete on even terms with U.S. companies for the first time in over 80 years.	Current tax code places unfair tax burden on U.S. exports and fails to neutralize tax advantages for imports.	A flat tax taxes exported goods and does not tax foreign imports to the U.S., creating unfair competition for U.S. manufacturers and businesses.
Government Intrusion	As the Founding Fathers intended, the FairTax does not directly tax individuals.	Current tax code requires massive files, dossiers, audits, and collection activities.	A flat tax still requires personal files, dossiers, audits, and collection activities.
History	45 states now use a retail sales tax.	The 1913 income tax has evolved into an antiquated, unenforceable morass, with annual tax returns long enough to circle Earth 28 times.	A flat tax just won’t stay flat.  Starting out nearly flat in 1913, the income tax grew out of control with top rates over 90% until the Kennedy administration.
Interest Rates	Reduces rates by an estimated 25-35 percent. Savings and investment increase.	Pushes rates up.  Biased against savings and investment.	Reduces rates 25-35 percent.  Neutral toward savings and investment.
Investment	Increases investment by U.S. citizens, attracts foreign investment.	Biased against savings and investment.	Neutral toward savings and investment.
IRS	Abolished.	Retained.	Retained with reduced role.
Jobs	Makes U.S. manufacturers more competitive against overseas companies.  Escalates creation of jobs by attracting foreign investment and reducing tax bias against savings and investment.	Hurts U.S. companies and decreases available jobs.  Payroll tax a direct tax on labor.	Positive impact on jobs. Does not repeal payroll tax on jobs.
Man-hours required for compliance	Zero hours for individuals.  Greatly reduced hours for businesses.	Over 5.4 billion hours per year.	Reduced.
Non-filers	Reduced tax rates and fewer filers will increase compliance.	High tax rates, unfairness and high complexity harm compliance	Reduced tax rates and improved simplicity will improve compliance.
Personal and Corporate Income Taxes	Both are abolished.	Retained.	Retained in a different form.
Productivity	Increases.	Inhibits productivity.	Increases.
Savings	Increases savings.	Decreases savings.	Increases savings.
Visibility	The FairTax is highly visible and easy to understand.  No tax is withheld from paychecks.	The current tax code is hidden, embedded in prices, complex, and incomprehensible.  Taxes are withheld from paychecks.	The business component of the flat tax and payroll taxes are hidden and would be embedded in prices.  Taxes are withheld from paychecks.

[1] Testimony by the Arthur Hall, Tax Foundation and before the House Ways and Means Committee, 1998.

[EternalVigilance]

How about "I think the FairTax is a bad idea and would be worse for America than our current system (yes, it could be worse)."

Complete and utter hogwash.

[Your Nightmare]

Golly, the FairTax^sm looks really good in that table. Where is that from?

[Your Nightmare]

Complete and utter hogwash.

Well the Real World^sm is a whole lot different that FairieLand.

[EternalVigilance]

Golly, the FairTaxsm looks really good in that table. Where is that from?

It's from the Land of Reality...a place you've never bothered to visit.

[EternalVigilance]

Well the Real Worldsm is a whole lot different that FairieLand.

What is this, your fifth year as a sophomore?

[Your Nightmare]

It's from the Land of Reality...a place you've never bothered to visit.

It's web address wouldn't be www.fairtax.org, would it? If so, that's a long way from the Land of Reality^sm.

[Beagle8U]

"Give me more info on exactly what you are proposing here."

A flat tax, no deductions, no nothing, 12-15%, whatever works, rich, old, young, married, single , the same for everyone.

I wouldn't tax SS, because we already screwed them in that system, just tax everything else at the same rate.

Then phase out the SS system for younger workers.

I would end the death tax, and I would end any tax on interest from savings.

[Your Nightmare]

What is this, your fifth year as a sophomore?

No, I graduated quite a while ago. How are the schools these days? It seems to me they aren't doing a very good job teaching basic economics. If you ever take it, let us know how it is.