"Dad Was Fine When I Came Out of Closet" -- Mary Cheney

Drudge Report ^ | May 2, 2006 | Drudge

[DJ MacWoW]

The answer is that people choose to do things that will hurt them. And justify it by saying they "can't" stop.

"It's just the way I am!"

[DJ MacWoW]

And they want others to change to accomodate their choices.

[papertyger]

Was Adam created 1 minute old? I had the impression he was created an adult. in an instant. and Eve, in an instant was an adult.

why then could not mountains be created, having age inherent to them?

I do not know the answers. just these questions :-)

My personal opinion is the biggest mistake one can make is to assume physics operated under the same rules before, and after the "Fall."

[MineralMan]

"As much as I appreciate your keen intellect and "devil's advocate" function on these types of threads, in this area you are in direct contradiction to the writings of St. Paul. "

---

I am often in direct contradition of the writings of St. Paul, I'm afraid. Paul's letters, I believe, have carried far too much weight in Christianity for a long time.

I remember thinking, as a mere teenager, that it was odd that the church I attended spent very little time teaching from the four Gospels, where one could find what was supposed to be the words of Jesus himself.

Oh, they showed up as the readings around Christmas and Easter, but not so often in between. Almost every Sunday, the pastor's sermon was based on some part one of Paul's letters.

I remember sitting in the Pastor's office asking him about that. He and I had weekly discussions in his office. Often, they turned on fine points of scripture and doctrine, since I was an avid student at the time.

His answer, regarding the letters of Paul, was that those letters had more relevance in today's world than the Gospels. I thought that odd, and still do.

Long ago, I began thinking of denominations which largely ignore the Gospels as Paulist in nature, rather than Christian. While Paul was certainly a central figure in the early church, the constant focus on his letters always seemed a bit strange to me.

I'm no longer a Christian, or a believer in any deities at all, but I still study the Judeo-Christian scriptures, since they play such a large role in western society. I still have many of the same questions.

For me, were I still a Christian, I would always read Paul's letters with an eye towards Jesus' words. Sometimes, they are in conflict with each other.

As for Paulist churches, I wish they would simply acknowledge that in their names.

[meandog]

The church teaches that the writers of the Bible were guided by the Holy Spirit, thus the scriptures become the very word of God. Of course, if you discount the veracity of scripture, I'm sure you view the church with a even more jaundiced eye.

the church at one time also taught that the earth was the center of the universe and the center of the solar system and persecuted those who proved differently. It also taught that witches existed and that they should be burned at the stake.

You substitute the darkened wits of man for the eternal God. God gave you a mind so that you could learn His ways and worship Him, not so that you could deny Him and worship at the altar of Reason and Knowledge, but that is what sinful man is apt to do. Yet the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of man.

Nope, God gave man a mind to reason...he also gave us the freedom of choice whether or not to worship him.

Then it is meaningless as a guide to God and suspect as a guide to life. If scripture is nothing more than a hint book-with false leads thrown in to boot-we are left to conclude that God (or more likely his self-appointed acolytes) are nothing more than jokesters.

It is no more worthless as a guide than a road map is to a unknown distant place.

If I believed as you do I would not call myself a Christian. But then again, I don't know if you have either, so I might be presuming upon our conversation.

Well, I do call myself a Christian but one apparently very unlike yourself in that I am not a judgemental one.

[MACVSOG68]

You are not the enigma you might think.

Enigma? You sure you're using the right descriptor? I don't think I'm an enigma at all, but given that you've been unable so far to explain your point, perhaps it's you that's the enigma.

That his comments are cunningly crafted makes them no less derogatory.

I recall reading of him giving some pretty nice statements about the old man, but couldn't get to the entire interview without a subscription. So if you are a subscriber to OUT, perhaps you can let me know what derogatory statements were made by him.

Now I would have a lot of derogatory statements to make about Mr. Terry, but didn't see any from his son. I saw a lot about his son that Terry said though...

[meandog]

And it doesn't mean they shouldn't. In fact the only reason not to is for religious dogma reasons. Homosexuals are free to chose their religion, and therefore the "shoulds" and "should nots" of their sexual behavior. While Christians and other religions might disagree, there should be NO law interfering with homosexual practices. Religions can preach (even if they come of sounding absurd) but they should NOT legislate in this regard.

I agree with you...however, I do feel that the homosexual act, like and act of fornication, is still sinful. I just don't believe in a law forbidding it unless it involves a minor child.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Neither of which Keyes did of course."

Where you there?

Of course you weren't.

Maya was...

I tried to love you and I failed...

Well, it's happened.  Finally and officially. 

A couple days ago I got my official two-week warning that I have to be out of this apartment; so finally for real I'm getting cut off.  I got no severance or anything like that from my sudden termination of employment (don't I have freedom of speech? the right to protest Bush without losing my job? Hehe... most people would think that working under a parent would be security but for me it's quite the opposite.) and so I definitely don't have anywhere near enough cash to find a new apartment; not even one room rented from someone anywhere.  I've been searching craigslist but even places where I'd have enough to pay the first month's rent on some room I never have enough for the deposit as well, so so far I've had no luck at all finding a new home, since shelter requires money. Sad boo.

After all the arguments and tension over the years, I always hoped it would never actually get to this point, although I suppose given our vastly divergent political beliefs it was inevitable.

My A n j u l s say no, no, it was not inevitable at all and this should never have happened.  They say that parents have some modicum of responsibility to their kids - at least so far as making sure they are not homeless and starving - especially if their kids have done nothing aside from thinking for themselves. They say that different political beliefs should not lead to parents kicking kids out of the house. They say most parents would be thrilled to have a child who doesn't smoke, have sex, do drugs, hardly drinks; more thrilled to have a child who additionally does well in school, is active on all sorts of extracurriculars, gets good grades, gets into the Ivy League; even more thrilled to have a child who on top of that goes regularly to church, spends free time mentoring kids and serving food to homeless people; even more thrilled to have a child to on top of that is not only politically aware but actively going out to try and fight for the causes she believes in, considering the political apathy of most teenagers.  They say that if all the above didn't cause parents to be thanking God every day for the child they were blessed with, that they certainly would be after the child puts off college for a year (wait, no, for ANOTHER year, since said child already deferred one year to go teach in India) to go support her father in his work.  They say that I'm a good daughter, that I changed around my whole plans just because I thought it would be nicer for my dad if after the end of working all the time on the campaign trail he could come back to someone who loves him rather than an empty house.  They say that it should be a source of pride, not of shame, for my parents that I'm so passionate about my beliefs, and work for what I believe in; even if they are not the beliefs my parents hold.  They say that the only possible cause for shame anywhere in the whole situation is in the fact that after all this I am being cut off, jobless, soon to be homeless, and that although I have intelligence and motivation I won't be able to go to Brown after all because I have no money.

So my Anjuls say.

My parents say otherwise.

He kicked her out.

I'll take Dick and Lynne Cheney as parents every day over Alan Keyes.

[scripter]

I believe that people don't have a choice...it is, IMHO, like being right or left handed.

You're not alone as a lot of people hold the same belief. But, do you know why you hold that belief? Of course I think it is extremely important to remain consistent in our thought processes, which is why I posted #658 (a new window will open if you click that link).

Did you get a chance to read the links I posted in #655? Dr. Robert Spitzer was very well known for his position on homosexuality, and his position was that homosexuals could not change. But after talking with some ex-gays his position changed 180 degrees and he now believes homosexuals can change. So if homosexuality is something in which they have no choice, how can they change? The testimonies Dr. Spitzer heard when he interviewed about 200 ex-gays were impressive enough to change his position 180 degrees, and that should tell us something.

Some homosexuals state they were born that way and that a gay gene existed that was responsible for their behavior. But science doesn't support that theory. In fact, science is quite hostile to the born-that-way theory.

Some homosexuals admit to choosing the lifestyle:

Queer By Choice (new window)

and they claim to make up 8% of the homosexual population.

Here is an article that summarizes some of the issues quite well:

How Might Homosexuality Develop? Putting the Pieces Together

I realize this is a lot of information to take in. As I previously said, it's very important to remain consistent in our thinking, and to remain consistent, we should have access to all available information.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Given it to him.

What's more money to He who gave His life for us?

To compare Maya to the Prodigal Son, you must understand that her return would have nothing to do with Alan Keyes, he is not God. Her return would mean returning to God.

And that's between Maya and God, with no intermediaries.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Alan Keyes needs to love and support his daughter.

[papertyger]

While your breath of knowledge, demeanor, analysis, and insight are atypical, they are not unheard of. I myself consider you to be a fairly "noble pagan" as outlined by C.S. Lewis. I shared your opinions on many of the particulars at one time.

I do not want to give the impression of claiming to have somehow superceded your honest inquiries earlier in life. Nevertheless, I would be lying to you if I did not admit the aforementioned Lewis' "meditations in a toolshed" radically changed my perspective as well as my method of investigation on the "big questions."

Interestingly enough, many avenues openned up to me after that which convince me more than ever the truth of the rabbinic saying "'coincidence' is not a kosher word."

Needless to say, I am now very comfortable with the synergy of the Gospels and the Epistles.

[stacytec]

Yeah, just looking at her you know that annoucment wasn't that big of a suprise.

Good for Dick though, he hung tough and stood up for his daughter (son??)

[Annie5622]

Yes, I do take it personally when certain posters troll through discussions between me and another poster and pick out one sentence from a whole story and make a big flippin game out of it. I originally said:

"The original discussion I was involved in was about a father's love for a child and if he loved her less because he didn't publicly proclaim his disgust for her. Some posters chose to add little stringers from each post - taking it into directions it wasn't meant to be. Some people take advantage of that option on the internet, whereas in face-to-face conversations, they wouldn't think that way. imo, of course." (point proven, btw) In my continuing discussion with that orginal poster, we worked through our differences, and we both learned that we misunderstood each other.

I posted back later, on 455 to Taadams : ""Few would suggest"

Many have already suggested it, unfortunately.

The rest of your post I agree with."

Where do I say Freepers said anything? Where in his/her original post did he/she mention freepers? I thought it was a general discussion about the world. There have been hundreds of people on the left that have gone as far as demanding that Bush fire Cheney for not publicly denouncing his daughter - or for that matter, even having a gay daughter. Anyone that hasn't been living in a hole in the ground have heard the comments. Now, just because adams wants to play silly games with other peoples posts, and you chose to follow along that lead with snide comments later, doesn't mean the rest of us want to play along.

[iluvlucy]

"Appropriate you get the 666 post..."

Yes I guess it is. Even the gates of hell will not prevail against the true Church.

"So, you're saying Mary Cheney is gay because her parents loved her too much?"

No but it is how you will see it, parse it and define it come what may, reality be dammed.

I said she is gay because her parents didn't love her enough but I doubt that will be understood any easier.

[MineralMan]

Good deal! C. S. Lewis is quite an excellent writer, with some fine explanations of Christianity, as he sees it. You could do much, much worse than spend time in his books.

It's not my nature to try to convince anyone of anything, so I won't get into any depth with this discussion. I'm very glad that you have found a good accomodation in your beliefs.

Thanks for the "noble pagan" label. I like that.

[DJ MacWoW]

Well, I do call myself a Christian but one apparently very unlike yourself in that I am not a judgemental one.

This "judgemental" stuff is ridiculous and as a believer I'm so tired of it being misused. We are supposed to be accountable to one another. And we are to share repentance and salvation.

James 5: 19-20

My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Lk 17:1-3

Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves.

"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents forgive him".

"Judge not lest ye be judged" has been totally twisted. We are not to judge others more harshly than we want to be judged. That's ALL that means. Do not hold others to a higher standard than we hold ourselves.

[meandog]

Did you get a chance to read the links I posted in #655? Dr. Robert Spitzer was very well known for his position on homosexuality, and his position was that homosexuals could not change. But after talking with some ex-gays his position changed 180 degrees and he now believes homosexuals can change. So if homosexuality is something in which they have no choice, how can they change? The testimonies Dr. Spitzer heard when he interviewed about 200 ex-gays were impressive enough to change his position 180 degrees, and that should tell us something.

I read it but I don't agree completely with Dr. Spitzer... We had a "reformed" homosexual come to our church series once and he talked about his lifestyle, convincing me that he was celibate at the time. But he also convinced me that he was forever tempted to slip back to his former lifestyle. He had a choice, but the choice apparently was whether or not to backslide (just as it is for most reformed alcoholics and drug abusers). Homosexuals are born, not made.

[jboot]

Well, I do call myself a Christian

I could call myself a physicist, but if I reject many of the established laws of physics and substitute my own theories, am I really a physicist? To wit: how do you know that Christ even existed? Because the Bible tells you so, perhaps? What if it is wrong on that point? And even if Christ did exist, most of His bona fides run counter to reason. Being born of a virgin is impossible, of course. So is returning from the dead. A quick analysis of Jesus' claims also proves that he was quite insane. A rational man does not claim to be God.

From a purely logical standpoint, this Jesus guy is pretty unlikely.

but one apparently very unlike yourself in that I am not a judgemental one.

Where have I been judgemental? I told you the truth: speaking for myself, if I didn't believe that the revelations of God (the scripture and the church) were trustworthy, it would be intellectually dishonest for me to call myself a Christian, because they are the only tangible sources of information about Christ.

[last american]

SHE'S A MAN, BABY !!

~AUSTIN POWERS

[DJ MacWoW]

Where do I say Freepers said anything?

Post 470

Don't play games. Many posts indicate that they supported Keyes when they thought he publicly denounced his daughter - and critisized Cheney because he did not.