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Why America's generals are out for revenge
The Times UK ^ | April 18, 2006 | Dean Godson

Posted on 04/19/2006 1:20:33 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach

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To: hinckley buzzard
But they also loaded up deuce-and-a-halfs with frauleins at gunpoint on Friday nights and dumped them back home on Sundays. The difference is, there was no media coverage so most people back home never heard about it.

Your source?

41 posted on 04/19/2006 6:03:33 PM PDT by Pelham ("Borders? We don' need no stinking borders!")
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To: demlosers

I'm sure it was a tactical decision. But there's no reason to dissociate Rumsfeld from the operation, other than it demonstrates a known problem with his intention of replacing artillery with air power.

Rumsfeld is not the first SecDef to emphasize a cost/benefit ratio. That was precisely what McNamara was known for, along with a goal for "modernization", and it's why some critics see Rumsfeld as McNamara redux.

Modernization isn't always what it's cracked up to be. There was once a decision to eliminate guns from fighter aircraft. After all there would be no more aerial dogfights. Until there were, and we needed guns and Top Gun training. Some generals are certain that in a future fight we will wish we had effective artillery, despite the fact that they won't ever be needed again, just like guns on fighters.


42 posted on 04/19/2006 6:22:35 PM PDT by Pelham
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To: kabar

It's an excellent book.


43 posted on 04/19/2006 6:25:33 PM PDT by Pelham
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To: Pelham

The problems with the Crusader weapons system were that it was way over budget ,too large/heavy for the majority of the roads/tunnels/bridges in over 85% of Europe were it was supposed to be first deployed & that it is slower than the weapon that it was to replace . On the modern battle field that combination gets you killed.


44 posted on 04/19/2006 6:33:27 PM PDT by Nebr FAL owner (.308 reach out & thump someone .50 cal.Browning Machine gun reach out & crush someone)
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To: Nebr FAL owner

A redesign reduced the weight of the Crusader from 60t to around 40t, and gave it a road speed of over 60 km/h. Recall that much of the same sort of criticism was aimed at the Main Battle Tank- too heavy, too expensive, unneccessary. But who would want to be without the Abrams today?

The Palladin is an older system. Crusader was designed with a new gun tube and advanced fire control to put a lot of metal on target in a big hurry. It can be reloaded and refueled faster. Something like it will eventually replace older pieces if we intend to retain our technological advantage on the battlefield.

FN-FAL .308s rule, btw.


45 posted on 04/19/2006 6:48:20 PM PDT by Pelham
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To: Pelham
The M109 Paladin is not going away. I have not read anywhere that that it will be retired. The US Army is not going to lose it's ability to put steel down range on targets.

Rumsfeld just didn't buy its replacement.

46 posted on 04/19/2006 6:54:24 PM PDT by demlosers
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To: Grampa Dave

Do I recall correctly that it was Rumsfeld who scotched an entire Navy destroyer major phase saying that it would delay the important progress needed to get to the further ahead phase? I'm sure that step by the Sec'y enraged a number of Admirals and at least one major shipbuilder. Yet, it was a JUMP ahead 15 years instead of a STEP ahead 7 years.


47 posted on 04/19/2006 7:03:21 PM PDT by Rembrandt (We would have won Viet Nam w/o Dim interference.)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%

"Our military won the war in Viet Nam. The civilians lost the media war here in the US to the communists."


Amen.


48 posted on 04/19/2006 7:05:08 PM PDT by Rembrandt (We would have won Viet Nam w/o Dim interference.)
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To: AmericanRepublican
"with some understanding that we're all Americans"

From where I sit, I think you're dreamin if you're including Liberal Socialist Demonicrats in that description now-a-days!!! Nothing is sacred to these mindless extremist activists!!!

49 posted on 04/19/2006 7:09:32 PM PDT by SierraWasp (Without knowing the force of words, it is impossible to know man!!! (or especially Waspman!!!))
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To: Gorjus
With no Crusader artillery (as one example), we're going to have a hard time delivering ordnance.

For that matter, I can't imagine the administration allowing a weapons system named "Crusader" to be deployed in Middle East. I'm not saying that's why it was killed. I just find the name ironic.

50 posted on 04/19/2006 7:13:10 PM PDT by JCEccles
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To: Rembrandt; Grampa Dave


Crew served mobile weapons system.

or



Crew served mobile weapons system.


51 posted on 04/19/2006 7:56:54 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (Order of Battle: Sink or capture as Prize, MS Media)
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To: Pelham
It would seem to me that recent advancements in precise delivery of explosives via air (bombs, C-130 gunships, etc.), in all weather conditions, as well as the ability to base air delivery systems far from the action had to figure into the Crusader equation (assuming a committment to always attaining air superiority). And, that probably led to the Army having concerns about Air Force and Navy support.

As someone who once depended on ASAP artillery fire to keep the enemy from getting through the wire, I can understand those concerns. I want the artillery available. BUT, that kind of fire can come from existing artillery. It might also be noted that, with a minimum of training, 105mm & 155m artillery crews can be assigned to either towed or self-propelled artillery with a minimum of training. I can understand how the Crusader would be considered high maintenance, limited in flexibility, and more suited for a mission better handled from the air.

52 posted on 04/19/2006 8:01:16 PM PDT by LZ_Bayonet
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To: Grampa Dave

It would be interesting to discover whether the writer has ever engaged in command of troops, employment of resources, logistics, planning or execution of operational plans or occupying a distant defeated hostile society of a different indigenous language and culture.


53 posted on 04/19/2006 9:04:16 PM PDT by middie
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To: SierraWasp

AMEN to that statement!


54 posted on 04/19/2006 9:27:42 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (History is soon Forgotten,)
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To: Grampa Dave; george76

These clowns seem to have forgotten some sage advice: " Duty, HONOR, Country."


55 posted on 04/20/2006 5:19:26 AM PDT by verity (The MSM is comprised of useless eaters)
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To: Pelham
Helicopters were sent against an entrenched Iraqi line, but got shot up without dislodging them. Field pieces were eventually brought up to greater effect. Sandstorms are also not a helicopter's friend, artillery is a good deal less impressed by bad weather.

Helos are sexy, but 6000 moving parts makes them vulnerable to low tech attacks.

Nowadays a Stinger is low tech.

56 posted on 04/20/2006 5:22:18 AM PDT by patriciaruth (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1562436/posts)
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To: AmericanRepublican
I hope this can be resolved with minimum casualties and with some understanding that we're all Americans and not have the media fall into the hands of liberal mudslinging.

You're a riot.

57 posted on 04/20/2006 5:33:31 AM PDT by johnny7 (“Nah, I ain’t Jewish, I just don’t dig on swine, that’s all.”)
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To: verity; george76; ASA Vet; BIGLOOK

Many of these leftwing clowns with stars on their shoulders, started this bs before we invaded Iraq and were hollering quagmire before the first week of battle was over.

One minute they are screaming that we didn't have enough soldiers on the ground and the next week we shouldn't have been there in the first place.

They have been wrong from the git go to the present.

God Help them if we ever find out they were funded by $oreA$$ of some Islamofascist deep pocket groups to whine and moan about Rummy and GW.


58 posted on 04/20/2006 6:24:38 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (There's a dwindling market for Marxist homosexual lunatic wet dreams posing as journalism)
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To: Grampa Dave; verity

59 posted on 04/20/2006 8:01:32 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: ASA Vet; george76
This sums up the whining generals/admiral very well"


60 posted on 04/20/2006 9:07:16 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (There's a dwindling market for Marxist homosexual lunatic wet dreams posing as journalism)
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